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Personal Defense Network Forum » Forum: Handguns - Recent Posts http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ en Thu, 09 Sep 2010 07:28:51 +0000 Nash C. on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-381 Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:03:03 +0000 Nash C. 381@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I agree Rob, that choice should be up to the gun owners. I also agree that there is a time and place for open carry. The place part also depends on where you live. In a metro area like Atlanta, open carry is not the best idea. The range I work at requires at least three of us to open carry each day. On the days I open carry for work, if I stop for fuel on the way to work or leave for lunch, I receive odd looks from people in public because they don't know the law and are curious to know why a person who is not law enforcement is carrying a gun. I have even been stopped at the gas station by a police officer who told me I could not open carry. ( clearly he was not familiar with the law). With that being said, I no conceal carry until I get to work, then I switch upon arrival. My parents live in south GA, the last time I visited them, I open carried in public so I could judge the difference of reaction vs. a metro area. Nobody even took a second look. for one, open carry down there is more common. I also feel that open carry can serve as a deterrent as well. Like I said, there is a time and place for it and one must determine for themselves when it is appropriate and when it is not. In conclusion, I avoid open carry in public however, if I'm going to Waffle House at 3am in metro Atlanta, I am open carrying. parabarbarian on "686 Work in progress..." http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/686-short-stop#post-379 Fri, 03 Sep 2010 12:35:49 +0000 parabarbarian 379@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Thank you. GrantCunningham on "686 Work in progress..." http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/686-short-stop#post-378 Fri, 03 Sep 2010 00:33:14 +0000 GrantCunningham 378@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <blockquote>parabarbarian wrote: It doesn't looks that hard to remove the lock from the new S&W's. Take off the side plate. Remove the hammer. Take out the little sliding plate. Put it back together. Near as I can tell I don't have to remove the spring or the little cam the key turns. Am I just fooling myself?</blockquote> No, you're not - that will pretty much do the trick. parabarbarian on "686 Work in progress..." http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/686-short-stop#post-377 Wed, 01 Sep 2010 23:54:39 +0000 parabarbarian 377@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ It doesn't looks that hard to remove the lock from the new S&W's. Take off the side plate. Remove the hammer. Take out the little sliding plate. Put it back together. Near as I can tell I don't have to remove the spring or the little cam the key turns. Am I just fooling myself? parabarbarian on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-373 Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:31:08 +0000 parabarbarian 373@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Given current technology I would, personally, never carry anything less than a 38 spl for self defense. About the only way I can see to improve the "mouse gun" cartridges listed with current technology is to use them to deliver a potent toxin. Ideally, for self defense, the payload would be quick to paralyze but slow to kill thereby enabling stopping an attacker even with marginal penetration but still allowing time for EMT or ER personnel to administer the antidote. However, right now such a bullet would probably be illegal as hell so I'll stick to the 38 spl as my working minimum. pioneer461 on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-363 Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:05:23 +0000 pioneer461 363@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <blockquote>Chris Ishmael wrote: On the other hand open carry reinforces positive attitudes the public has about gun owners which is a very important thing. It makes it less taboo when the public regularly sees normal people with guns going about their daily business. The political statement it makes is very powerfull and as a patriot I have a hard time faulting that. </blockquote> I have a slightly different take. My fear is that in the long run, in-your-face open carry could have a negative effect. Exactly how does a casual observer determine who are "normal people?" Especially in an urban setting, your average soccer mom is more likely to freak-out and call 9-1-1. All she is likely to focus on is the gun, instead of your behavior. There is a better than even chance she, or he, has been indoctrinated to fear all guns as evil. With the ever increasing open carry movement, I fear the anti-gunners will see this as an opportunity to try and restrict it. Perhaps we should be more discriminating about where and when we open carry. I agree with Rob that we should not be carrying firearms to make a political statement. My experience and opinion, your mileage may vary. <center> DesertRat on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-361 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:41:36 +0000 DesertRat 361@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Rob, I agree with you that "that the choice to carry openly or not should be in the hands of the individual and not be legally restricted." Open carry in an urban environment is not something I like to do. When I worked on the sales floor at the now Defunct Federal Ordnance in South El Monte California we were encouraged to carry. I only had one handgun at the time, but it was better than none. Being that it was a 686 that I shot in competition at least 2x a month I didn't feel under gunned at all. Being new to carrying a gun every day I tried quite a few options before I settled on a Bianchi 2.5" Belt and Security Holster and a Safariland (3) speed loader carrier. Even with the security holster I was very wary of presenting my gun to anyone. Thanks in no small part to some good teachers. Now in the bush I will open carry and not think twice about it. I still remember the lessons taught about not presenting my weapon to someone I interact with though. Benny on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-353 Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:55:36 +0000 Benny 353@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ CSHoff and Rob both nailed it for me on a couple of points, yes, it blows you're element of surprise clean out of the water, and no... no one wants to get chatted up by LEOs all day either. It just seems though, the camel's nose under the tent always leads to fewer freedoms such as those words "Shall not be infringed"... well, is our 2nd amendment not "infringed" all to heck & back? I'm in South Texas and not to reinforce a stereotype but yes, we have rattlesnakes all over the bloody place, we have violent neighbors just a few miles south of us, who do not wish to stay south of us. There is the point of perhaps, it makes you the first target to be OC, however, according to the Constitution, Law of the Land...end all be all in our Bill of Rights, clearly states that our right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed...by CCW permit, by cost of a class or a state license, etc... shall not be infringed is pretty darn clear. When I was a kid, if my Dad told me I shall not do something, ya think for one minute I didn't know exactly how simple that order was? The whole "ask Big Brother" for permission is total BS and Un-Constitutional to start with so we begin in a hole. Down here it is just too unbearably hot to wear a sport coat so we have to go either OC or in the waistband. Of course it would be foolish not to wear a holster with some type of retention, if for no other reason than I don't want to scratch my Kimber, oh well. I hear that the all mighty legislature in Austin might grant me my inalienable right to keep and bear arms with consideration to OC in their next term One can only hope. Benjamin M. Bennett cshoff on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-341 Wed, 04 Aug 2010 01:10:27 +0000 cshoff 341@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I believe my opinion on the subject pretty much mimics that of Rob's. For me, open carry in public is not suitable for my lifestyle or my job, nor is it conducive to the defensive mindset I prefer to operate with most of the time. I don't have the desire or the time to address or respond to inquisitive citizens or overly intrusive LEO's as I go about my daily affairs, and I always prefer to have more tactical options rather than fewer and I feel I get more options from my concealed firearm than I do from a openly carried one. That said, I do openly carry here around my property on a regular basis. I have 440 acres that we routinely hike, hunt, and ride ATV's on, and open carry works extremely well when I am engaged in those activites. I don't begrudge those who open carry. I believe every law abiding adult citizen should have the legal flexibility to choose the mode of carry that works best for them and their particular lifestyle. It wouldn't bother me in the least if OC became common place in every state of this country. kyglockman on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-338 Tue, 03 Aug 2010 20:13:57 +0000 kyglockman 338@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ here in ky every instructer for ccw permits that i have ran into have said if you have your permit to carry concealed, carry it concealed! the only time i do not is when i am on the farm (private property) and when i open carry there it is in a serpa holster just in case of a gun grab(highly unlikely but the world we live in now you never know) and so i do not loose it on the 4 wheelers and such! but anywhere esle it is concealed! first off if you are some place that say a guy or few is going to rob you will be there first target cause they can see you are armed and poss a big threat to what they are doing and second around here there is some very uneducated people that i dont want calling the cops saying the infamous man with a gun BS! and lord for bid if you put your hand on it in anyway just resting or whatever you can be charged with brandishing a firearm! so for me unless i am on the farm i think concealed carry for the best for everybody involved! stay safe James on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-334 Tue, 03 Aug 2010 15:24:53 +0000 James 334@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Georgia is also a state where the license is good for open or concealed carry. I almost always carry concealed. It allows me more tactical options in my opinion. If I am seen with a gun, the bad guy may choose to take me out first. As a civilian, my use of a gun is almost certainly going to be in reaction to an act. So I start out with that against me. If I am concealed, that gives me the element of surprise, or even the option not to engage until the situation has changed. Situational awareness certainly evens up the odds a little for me. With frequent practice drawing from concealment, I am not giving up much in speed of draw, it has become a part of my drawing motion that I do without thinking anymore. There are however times when I believe there is something to be gained by open carrying. For example, the state organization for gun rights participates in the "Adopt a Highway" program. They typically can be seen on the side of the road picking up trash and most open carry while doing so. This, I think, demonstrates to the public that people with guns are just like them. We are professionals, we are the factory workers, we are the guy you sit next to in Church. We care about our community, and we are doing something good for it. Maybe that is a political statement, but I believe it is one worth making. The reaction to seeing a person with a gun in a holster should not be alarming. If that person is waving the gun around, then we have a problem, but the man or lady at the local big box store, should not cause a panic if they are carrying a firearm openly. I am not sure we ever get there, but it sure would be nice. Rob is absolutely right. It should be a personal decision. We all have to weigh the benefits and drawbacks of each method of carry. I do believe however, that sometimes when the situation permits, political statements need to be made. GrantCunningham on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-333 Tue, 03 Aug 2010 11:24:33 +0000 GrantCunningham 333@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I grew up in a very small town in the '60s and '70s, a town where open carry wasn't at all unknown. (This was long before the wave of "shall issue" legislation across America.) Today I spend a lot of time in a part of the state where open carry is still regularly practiced. The concept is not new to me, but the political aspects of it are. Those who choose to carry as a statement have my respect. Dealing with uneducated police officers and the frightened public are really more than I'd want to do. I don't open carry because my firearm is a tool for a specific purpose, and that purpose is not served by alerting people to the fact that the tool is present. I do have a concern that those who choose to open carry are not prepared in their skill set for the practice. A gun carried openly, particularly without a retention holster, is a candidate for a grab. How many open carry advocates use a retention holster that securely fastens to the belt (a small percentage, from my observations) and how many have taken formal training in handgun retention (almost zero, if my limited sampling is an accurate representation.) If someone plans to open carry it is imperative that these two considerations are met. A good retention holster which can't easily be torn from the belt (paddle holsters DO NOT COUNT!) and training in the most effective ways to defeat a gun grab should be considered vital. I've heard a lot of talk amongst the OC people about rights and social engineering, and too little about responsibilities and safety. That needs to change. GeorgeHill on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-332 Tue, 03 Aug 2010 10:34:59 +0000 GeorgeHill 332@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ This was a great topic and probably deserved more air time. Certainly one's area of operation plays an important factor. I live a more rural area of Utah. Open Carry is really not a concern out here. If I lived in a more urban area, I might not carry open. I'm not saying I don't carry concealed... I do both. Depending on where I am going and what I am doing. What works for me probably would not work for someone living in Seattle or Denver or any other city with a large population. But I think that anytime one can - one should. It gets people used to seeing it, it becomes accepted. Look at all the other things people do and wear that are now accepted, that used to have been considered unacceptable. tarawa1943 on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-330 Tue, 03 Aug 2010 08:49:54 +0000 tarawa1943 330@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ the 2nd Amendment still stands! tarawa1943 on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-329 Tue, 03 Aug 2010 08:48:47 +0000 tarawa1943 329@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Rob, you have commonsense and a balanced way of thinking. Adapting to each situation and circumstances based on one's defensive/offensive requirements is the balanced approach. Open is a good deterrent but not an element of surprise (speaking for myself). Definitely in close quarters concealment is priority. rtuck77 on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-328 Tue, 03 Aug 2010 08:32:06 +0000 rtuck77 328@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ it really is up to each person, both have pros and cons joemerchant24 on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-326 Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:17:20 +0000 joemerchant24 326@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ It's hard to live the stealth lifestyle when you O.C. I'm not going to fault those who choose to, but it's not for me. Chris Ishmael on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-325 Mon, 02 Aug 2010 10:00:20 +0000 Chris Ishmael 325@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ This is a subject of great debate among the gun community and I can see merit on both sides. It can't be denied that concealed is tactically superior to open carry in most situations such as around other people in public. If all I have on me for defense is a hand gun I'm already at a great disadvantage because I'm not carrying a long gun so I want any advantage I can get - open carry puts me at a great disadvantage by giving up the crucial element of suprise. In my opinion the very minimal determent factor of open carry is far outweighted by suprise factor of concealed. On the subject of determent, a hand gun is not much of a determent at all, that is the job of the rifle and the main reason the Second Amendment was worded the way it was. The hand gun is a "last ditch oh S#%$ get me the hell out of here so I can get to my rifle weapon", not a deterent. On the other hand open carry reinforces positive attitudes the public has about gun owners which is a very important thing. It makes it less taboo when the public regularly sees normal people with guns going about their daily business. The political statement it makes is very powerfull and as a patriot I have a hard time faulting that. I see concealed as a short term mind set; I'm worried about me and my family right here, right now. Open carry is more of a long term liberty issue as I don't want to lose my rights and the rights of my children and grandchildren by hiding because someone will be scared or offended. Benny on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-324 Mon, 02 Aug 2010 02:59:36 +0000 Benny 324@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ rtuck77, I like the way you have it there...all we have is concealed, however, couple of years ago our neighborhood was in the midst of a terror attack from a large ill tempered German Shepherd that would get out of it's yard while the owner was away. I had personally been bitten by this dog, a child down our street as well, and many other joggers with their dogs had been cornered and over a period of time a Chihuahua and a Dachshund had both been attacked. This dog had been taken by animal control, quarantined and the owner had to pay a fine, have the dog registered as a "dangerous animal" and the owner's fence, both electric at the bottom accompanied by a 6 foot cedar privacy fence above had to be certified by the city before he could recover his dog. After a woman walking her Chihuahua was cornered and nearly attacked, but saved by the homeowner, on whose porch she took refuge, when he retrieved a rather nice bat. Again the police were called and due to my many friends in the P.D. from my former association, the responding officer knew who I was though I did not personally know him. He advised me this: "Whenever I find myself in the position to be out front for any extended amount of time, mowing, weeding the flower beds, pruning my roses, etc...keep your pistol close at hand." This was the officer and his partner along with the occupants of another responding unit. He said he would prefer I carry open on this, in the event that this dog should make itself an available target. I am an animal lover, big time, however I would not hesitate to empty a full magazine into this beast should the opportunity present itself. The good officers who had responded to this particular occasion made it very clear that had they been there to witness this occurrence, they would have been glad to do it themselves without hesitation. When these officers expressed to me their desire for this dog to end, they as well prescribed the same action to each of the neighbors who were present, perhaps 18 or 20 people. Before they left here, each officer gave me their individual contact card and instructed me to call each of them should this ungodly creature ever collect my .45ACP Golden Saber Hollow points, as they each had record of event after event and should it be necessary for me to have to explain my actions in the discharge of a firearm within the city limits to a judge, the officers expressed their desire to be present as well. So, what I have here is, in a state with conceal carry only, Law Enforcement Officers instructing me to carry open, to destroy this dog, to discharge within city limits, etc... Most of the local P.D. officers that know me, know me from my days as an informant for our Tri-County Narcotics Task Force as well as years as a Police Explorer and then Process Server for a District Judge friend of mine. To shorten this story substantially, there has yet to be an occasion again for any action. It would seem that among the group of neighbors who were present during my direct instruction to destroy this K-9 Demon, one took it upon themselves to inform the dog's owner of our intent by instruction. Thus far, the owner's knowledge of what awaits with no "maybe" about it has been sufficient, however, to this day, when I am in the front yard in no more than shorts and tennis shoes, pulling weeds or what have you, there is and you would easily see in plain sight either a Kimber Classic Stainless Gold Match in .45ACP or a Kimber Ultra Carry II .45ACP or a Colt Combat Commander.45ACP, or the E.A.A. Witness .45ACP, or a S&W 5906 9mm, or an American Heritage .22WMR, or any of the others ... but one will be on my right hip and two full magazines on my left. All in all, this open carry is far from a political statement and has been entirely effective as a deterrent to the dog owner of being careless with his large lethal beast. Step a bit farther with me... we are too close here in South Texas to the criminal element that is permeating northward from our southern border. Less than one month ago, a mere half mile from my yard, a 92 year old woman was brutally beaten to death in her home at roughly 2p.m. on a Tuesday. Later that week, the assailant was caught using her credit card at Wal-Mart. Mr. Bad Guy...an illegal alien from the state of Tamalapas, he was buying about $40.00 worth of simple junk and by doing so, set the value of this woman's life. I refuse to be a victim and I refuse to pay extortion money to our state so that I may exercise my right to "keep and bear arms", as you recall this right,"shall not be infringed." Charging a licensing fee of $125.00 is an infringement. Would you pay for a license to exercise your first amendment right? I would bet not...we would sooner revolt yet we have been, though the main-stream media, made to believe that a permit or license is somehow required to even own a firearm and this liberal barrage of the ignorant who actually believe this farce only re-enforces the un-Constitutional rule of law. I'm sorry to ramble, but I am very passionate about my freedoms, or lack thereof... I do advocate a class for anyone who intends to carry, be it concealed or open, and perhaps a fee simply to cover the cost of the class and an I.D. type or driver's license type card to carry as proof that you have taken a firearms safety/awareness course. This is a very simple solution to a very serious problem. The way it is now in Texas, if you cannot financially afford the $125 class & $125 license, then you have no right to bear arms. Lower income/ lower class discrimination that prevents the poor from carrying a means of self defense is despicable and simply UNCONSTITUTIONAL. It has been some time since I taught a firearms safety training course and if it were permitted I would gladly teach the course at no charge. I pray for my State, our Legislators and My Governor, Rick Perry, at the same time though, I have to pray for the safety of our citizens, mainly our elders, who cannot protect themselves. They are at the mercy of the criminal element and sadly, on their fixed incomes this will not change. Thank you for allowing me to vent as I voice my disappointment in the status quo if you pray, join me in the prayers I shared with you. Most Sincerely and Respectfully Yours, Benjamin M. (Benny) Bennett rtuck77 on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-323 Mon, 02 Aug 2010 00:05:39 +0000 rtuck77 323@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ open carry can be a deterrent to some criminals but it can also get their attention and make you the target of their attack, here in TN our handgun carry permit allows for open carry and concealed carry, so it is up to the permit holder to choose their method of carry, although the law enforcement perfer you to carry concealed. I live in the country about 15 miles outside of town and I carry open around my place but when I go into town I wear a cover garment usally a button up shirt ( I recomend 5.11 shirts) but open carry by myself and some people I know is not a political statement but a matter of choice. Benny on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-322 Sun, 01 Aug 2010 22:47:54 +0000 Benny 322@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Well thank you Rob, This was my point exactly...in Hedgepeth County, the Sheriff has a $250,000 bounty on his head from his friends across the border. They are out around Del Rio and right on the river. There are 17 Deputies to cover 5000 sq.miles so the Sheriff has asked the citizenry to carry for their own protection. Sad that the Fed.Gov't has let it come to that. Then, as well, not having open carry in Texas and requiring $250 to carry concealed here is unconstitutional unto itself. To force one to pay to exercise a right, it may as well be a poll tax. $125 for the class, $125 for the license, however the 2nd Amendment clearly states,"Shall not be infringed." One might try to equivocate this to a driver's license, but this is a faux argument as driving is a privilege, not a Constitutionally protected God given right. When the Gov't begins limiting these rights, they assume the role of God Himself and we know they are so far from that. I agree wholly with you that this is too serious for one to simply make a political statement with. Weapon retention would have to be of the utmost importance and of course none of this should ever be taken lightly as it is always potentially lethal. I'm afraid that anyone who would carry simply as a political statement hasn't the maturity or correct mindset to be in possession to begin with. We are but 120 miles from the border here, just this morning we had two vehicles full of illegals try to run from our neighboring county's Sheriff. One vehicle rolled and severely injured many of the fourteen who bailed out and the other vehicle continued on up Hwy.35. More times than not, they are willing to do anything or go to any lengths to continue the illegal trek northward and injuring or killing a U.S. citizen is never out of the question for the cornered criminal element. Therefore, if open carry here were legal (you can see the necessity) we would open carry, however, due to the fact that it isn't we do not have that Constitutionally protected right to keep and "bear" arms available to us, unless you want to pay cash, up front to exercise it. I wholeheartedly agree concealment is the best way to end a "Dynamic Critical Incident" through the element of surprise, however I also believe Open Carry is the deterrent to prevent the situation all together. I do sincerely hope our state legislators take a lesson from our border Sheriffs and relinquish the whole of our 2nd Amendment back to the people of Texas by allowing us open carry again. Sincerely, Benjamin M. (Benny) Bennett RobPincus on "Open Carry: Good Idea or Not?" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/open-carry-good-idea-or-not#post-321 Sun, 01 Aug 2010 22:04:07 +0000 RobPincus 321@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ We had a question on Armed American Radio today in regard to legal Open Carry. I had made a statement earlier in the show that I do not think Open Carry is a good idea for those interested in self defense. I also alluded to the idea that some people see carrying openly as a political statement. I don't think you should carry a gun as a political statement, I think you should do it to be better able to protect yourself and I think you are better able to do that when you carry concealed. Certainly, there are times and places for open carry and one of them was a situation that the caller spoke about: being in a remote area such as the Texas Border would be a time when openly carrying a gun would be much more appropriate. This is a very different situation than grocery shopping or being in another public space where people are often close to you and your mind is likely on many things other than weapon retention. All that said, I certainly think that the choice to carry openly or not should be in the hands of the individual and not be legally restricted. What are you thoughts? kyglockman on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-315 Fri, 23 Jul 2010 03:11:55 +0000 kyglockman 315@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ hey everybody, i just joined and its great to be here. but wanted to chime in on this topic! as my user name implies, i am a huge glock fan! my main carry piece is a glock 27 .40, and if i need a bigger one i carry a 23 .40! but there is just some times i cant carry one of them so in those times i have carried a kel tec p3at for years! i can shoot the p3at almost as good as i can my bigger ones it is accurate and good shooting the only down fall is the small size is harder to shoot well even my glock 27 i can get my whole hand around with a grip extension but even without the extension i shoot it a little better because it is just bigger and more gun in my hand! no the 380 does not have as much knock down power as a 9 or .40 but those are still handguns as well. i wish i could carry around a rifle strapped to my back but it would attract to much attention and be harder to get in to action, lol... but anyway i have shot my little gun for years and am pretty dern good with it! but around the house it is a tool to get to a better tool and as a only carry gun on the street i believe with other things it will be enough to get me home safe if i ever need it!! i made the decision a little bit back to really get a light wait thin easily carried gun but in 9mm because i to believe in a handgun anyway the bigger the caliber the better! but after looking at just about every little 9mm on the market i finally chose one!! and dont get the wrong i love my glock 27 and thought about getting a glock 26 for cheaper ammo and less recoil but it is still the same thickness as my 27 and right on the same wait! so what would i be really doing if i am not changing the size why shoot the lesser bullet! i wanted something thin and very light! i looked at everything from the khars to the new taurus' and so on! i did noti like the price of the pm9 from khar, at $650 i can do without it! and the others i looked at were simply to heavy i wanted as light as i could in a 9mm! so i got the kel tec pf9 its younger brother has protected me for years. so why not give it a try! at less then an inch thick and less then a pound fully loaded it is a joy to carry and the respect i have for kel tec's made my decision! but it is still a little gun and wit hmuch practice and about a thousand rounds later i can shoot it just a good as my glock 27!! so wit henough practice and determination i believe anybody can learn to shoot what they want to carry! yes i do not want to leave the house without one of my glock .40s but in reality ist is not always possible! if yo uwant t ocarry a little gun just remember it is a little gun and that just means you have to be that much better with it! because i dont care how little the bullet is i dont know anybody that wants to be shot with it! and if you do your part and hit the right spot it will do its job to the best of its ability! guys sorry so long winded and thanks for letting me be apart of yalls forum! stay safe & shoot straight rsharrer on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-312 Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:28:49 +0000 rsharrer 312@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <blockquote>ZenGunFighter wrote: Pretty much anyone can conceal a Kahr PM9. There really isn't any reason to go smaller in size than that. The Kahr is small and light enough to conceal, but large enough with good sights and usable trigger so that it can actually be used in a fight. Carrying a firearm is all about compromises and balances. Anything smaller than the Kahr PM9 or lightweight J frame is going too far the wrong way as far a 'balancing' carry-ability vs. fight-ability</blockquote> Zen I have to agree, I have a Kahr PM9 and I carry it from time to time, it is light weight 7 shot 9mm. I like to call it my dress weapon. I carry my glock .40cal. most of the time but there are just times that you can not carry a gun that big, in those times I carry my Kahr. Ryan WindyCityKali on "686 Work in progress..." http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/686-short-stop#post-264 Sat, 05 Jun 2010 18:32:05 +0000 WindyCityKali 264@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Just a quick note: I bought a 686 4" about 5 years ago. It has been a pleasure to own and shoot - it's never failed to operate exactly as expected. Good choice. I hope you enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine. ZenGunFighter on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-256 Sun, 30 May 2010 17:25:09 +0000 ZenGunFighter 256@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Pretty much anyone can conceal a Kahr PM9. There really isn't any reason to go smaller in size than that. The Kahr is small and light enough to conceal, but large enough with good sights and usable trigger so that it can actually be used in a fight. Carrying a firearm is all about compromises and balances. Anything smaller than the Kahr PM9 or lightweight J frame is going too far the wrong way as far a 'balancing' carry-ability vs. fight-ability brianko on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-254 Sun, 30 May 2010 15:21:51 +0000 brianko 254@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I've been carrying a Kahr PM9 and/or CW9 for over a year now. If it weren't for these two single-stack 9mm, I probably wouldn't be carrying on a regular basis: Being a rather small guy, carrying around my Sig 229 or XD-9, is simply out of the question. Further up-post, someone commented on the idea that a beneficial side-effect for sub-compacts is the possibility that those who normally wouldn't carrry because of the wardrobe modifications required for larger handguns might now be enticed to carry with a sub-compact. To me, that's the name of the game: We can argue about shooting characterisitcs all day long, but in the end, concealed carry isn't effective unless you're carrying. Since studies have shown that most CHL interactions occur at close range, I question whether some of these discussions are anything more than academic exercises. At an rate, I carry every day now, everywhere I go (except school...for some strange reason, our state legislature puts a smaller value on the lives of our children than the lives of their parents). I alternate the Kahrs, IWB at about 3 o'clock, and can continue wearing the same clothes I already own. cshoff on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-149 Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:03:29 +0000 cshoff 149@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Demo - You are talking about +P ammo now. I've yet to see anything from Kel-Tec, Ruger, Bersa, or even SIG that approves the use of .380 +P ammunition in their firearms. In fact, the SIG P238 operators manual specifically states: <blockquote>....."The proper caliber is permanently engraved on your firearm; never attempt to use ammunition of any other caliber.".....</blockquote> If the barrel of your gun only has ".380 ACP" stamped in it, it would appear as though the use of +P ammunition would not be approved. Mike - You are pointing out attributes that some of us have already mentioned here. There is no doubt that if ultimate concealment is your requirement, it's hard to beat the flat, compact design of some of these pocket pistols. I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that point. However, that same attribute also changes the dynamics of the training one must utilize in order to "run the gun" efficiently. As has already been pointed out, it takes more dexterity to properly manipulate these smaller pistols than it does a larger gun. The other thing I believe is worth mentioning here is the tendency for these small guns to have feed and extraction issues. Even the <a href="http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2074&cid=4">RECENT ARTICLE</a> in American Rifleman where range tests on 9 different .380 pocket guns were performed, including the SIG P238, is quoted as saying: <blockquote>....."I am concerned about the number of cycling malfunctions, most commonly failures to feed and chamber. With one exception, every gun experienced these problems....."</blockquote> At the very least, this highlights the importance of a thorough and complete break-in period to get these little guns to an acceptable level of functional reliability; something I doubt most owners really do. In my opinion, these little guns are a solution to a unique problem. They are not, however, a replacement for a larger, more powerful, and more reliable handgun in environments where the larger handgun can be carried. MikeM on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-148 Tue, 23 Feb 2010 06:23:54 +0000 MikeM 148@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Demo does make a very good point here guys. The whole concept behind a sub-compact gun is that it is small enough and light enough to carry with you at ALL times. Lets not forget the first rule of any gunfight - Have a Gun! Is the .380ACP round ever going to match a .45ACP? No. But then again we are not likely to see a manageable .45ACP thats the same size as the new generation of pocket pistols. Even a gun such as the Kahr PM40 offers a very small frame in a larger caliber but the recoil is pretty stiff. So for those people who can't afford to carry a gun the size that a larger caliber gun some of these .380ACP subcompact semi-auto's fit the bill very well. For those who argue that the .380 ins't manageable in such a small sized frame (often citing the polymer LCP or Kel-tec), you likely have not shot a gun such as the Sig P238. I can tell you from direct experience (owning 2 of them) that the recoil of a P238 is very manageable (almost negligible). It is not hard at all to get consistent combat accurate shots quickly on target using this particular handgun. Understand that Im not saying that the P238 is a perfect gun without flaws (it is an SAO trigger with a manual safety for example). I'm just stating the fact that there are very small .380ACP pistols out there that are controllable and accurate and fill a very useful place in the concealed carry and personal defense market. If you are interested in reading more about the P238, there are many posts about its trials, tribulations, and successes as well as a product review at <a href="http://www.armstalk.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.armstalk.com</a>. I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss the .380ACP cartridge. The sheer number of manufacturers making these guns and the consistent shortage of .380ACP ammo in the market are indicators that many people are fond of them. Demo on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms#post-147 Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:35:08 +0000 Demo 147@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Thank you for the reply cshoff. I will agree that a Kel Tec or something of that size is not exactly the most accurate pistol. That being said most people who choose to carry a high percentage of the time simply can't have their larger frame pistols on them at work. Even a Kel Tec in the pocket is much better than a 45. in the safe at home. Personaly I carry (as I mentioned) a P238. Unless your a grizzly, in which case I need to take down my posts, it'll fit your hand just fine and the sights are just as big as the P220 sights. You've pulled out the dynamic, critical, action packed adventure performance line so allow me to quote directly from Buffalo Bore' site then I'll be outta here. "This 380 Auto+P ammo will better all American made 380 Auto ammo by 150 fps to 200 fps in all bullet weights we make. This is a serious improvement in this typically anemic cartridge. This 380 auto+P ammo is more powerful than the typical 38SPL ammo made by most American ammo makers and you'll get 7 shots of it in a small/flat/light weight 380 versus 5 shots out of a bulkier 38 SPL J frame revolver. Additionally, with the 380 you'll get much faster reloads and the little magazines are flatter than a speed-loader used for a J frame."