http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ en Sun, 05 Feb 2012 22:40:28 +0000 http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ccw-in-a-car-and-stopped-by-law-enforcement#post-1022 Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:42:38 +0000 bpa5152 1022@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>Thank you for the information. This has been very helpful. I feel better about encountering an officer once I begin to carry. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ccw-in-a-car-and-stopped-by-law-enforcement#post-1021 Sun, 01 Jan 2012 20:05:13 +0000 AE3007H1 1021@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>As a matter of fact all of the officers that I know prefer that &quot;responsible&quot; citizens do arm themselves! This is a sampling from East Tennessee and surrounding areas. The more of us that there are the easier the officer&#39;s jobs are because the crime rates drop. It is numerical/statistical fact.</p> <p>Just be responsible, calm, respectful, and deliberate with your actions, communication, and intentions and you will be fine. Remember, the cameras are ALWAYS rolling so even if you hit the lotto and the officer that you drew is flying off the deep end, YOU KEEP YOUR WITS ABOUT YOU AND BE CALM AND RESPECTFUL! Do what you are told regardless of your &quot;rights&quot;. This will all come out in court. Make sure that your lawyer gets a copy of the tape ASAP. </p> <p> One last thing. Join a law group such as Prepaid-legal or the Armed Citizens&#39; Legal Defense Network. They are worth the small price that you pay for the help if you get into a situation such as we are discussing or especially in the event that you have to deploy your weapon in defense of you own or family&#39;s lives. These groups will be there to help and defend you when the legal S*&amp;^ storm comes blowing in if you have to defend yourself. If you can swing it go with both! </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ccw-in-a-car-and-stopped-by-law-enforcement#post-1004 Thu, 22 Dec 2011 01:03:40 +0000 Anonymous 1004@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>Nice sharing guys!</p> <p>I am getting a great knowledge fro this site. :) </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ccw-in-a-car-and-stopped-by-law-enforcement#post-998 Tue, 20 Dec 2011 06:15:15 +0000 fkarlh 998@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>If you are stopped, the officer will be accessing your license and other information on his computer and will discover you are a ccw permit holder. So there is no reason not to tell the officer you are carrying. I was stopped about a month ago. I have only had my permit for about 6 months and I was a little apprehensive about how the officer would react. While my state does not require that I inform the officer, I knew as soon as he pulled my license, etc., it would show (at least in my state) that I had a ccw permit. I had both hands on the wheel and politely said that I needed to inform him that I was a concealed carry permit holder and that I had a pistol on my hip. I actually believe that the officer respected the fact that I informed him as well as that I carried. I noticed his posture, attitude, etc. change in a positive way. He did not ask to see my weapon or my permit and he let me go with just a warning. I don&#39;t agree that there is zero reason not to tell the officer. Looking at it form his viewpoint, would you prefer to have the driver inform you of his permit and whether they are carrying at that time or go back to your car, pull the record, discover the driver is a permit holder and then have to approach the vehicle to determine whether the driver has a weapon, knowing they have a permit and didn&#39;t have the courtesy to inform you. The situation is now much more stressful than it would have been had you simply informed the officer of your permit and whether you had a weapon. I think it is a matter of courtesy to inform the officer and cooperate with them after that. Then it will not be a big deal. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-995 Mon, 19 Dec 2011 21:25:17 +0000 Froglives 995@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p><blockquote><strong>cshoff wrote:</strong><br /> That is an interesting question, Rob. I would guess it&#39;s kinda like a &quot;which came first&quot; situation; did the consumer demand for smaller handguns come first, or did manufacturers &quot;create&quot; a demand by pushing the smaller weapons? One thing is for sure; the popularity of smaller, lighter handguns has certainly exploded for one reason or another.</blockquote></p> <p>It&#39;s all about the &quot;sales&quot; people only buy after they overcome objections, even when they really really want something. So to me, when I see an item surge in sales, I try to see what objections are being overcome by that product, enabling it so rocket up in sales without any salesperson overcoming objections to move it.<br /> The comments about a 380 possibly being perceived as not potentially as lethal may be right on target if you look at the amount of non gun-loving individuals procuring weapons and carry permits for personal protection. I would add that folks like that might not normally adjust their dress for comfort as it relates to shooting, personal protection, or out and out combat in their leisure time, and are probably even more restricted at work.<br /> My wife for example would much rather crush your skull with any available object, put a small cute gun to your forehead, or stick a knife in your throat then dress less than stunning. Much higher risk I know, but then I am twice her size and wouldn&#39;t want to take my chances.<br /> Personally I am looking at smaller calibers as I am a big man, and on top of that am carrying extra weight (like most Americans) I find it hard to conceal my truck keys, duty phone, blade, let alone a gun.<br /> You folks all seem to have very nice guns, I would love to carry any of them in any caliber, but then I live in California. Until things change I am very limited, I will say though my home defense gun, is a Tipman 98, it shoots .68 caliber glass, 3-5 per second at over 400 fps. Less than all weapons mentioned but very effective at putting anyone on their ass.<br /> All in all I would say a lot of folks that are not really ready to kill someone are buying guns for protection, and many of them have lifestyles / clothing styles / body size issues that prohibit trying to conceal a larger type weapon.<br /> Thank you for all the information on the site<br /> Cheers </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ccw-in-a-car-and-stopped-by-law-enforcement#post-994 Sun, 18 Dec 2011 09:04:37 +0000 Chris Ishmael 994@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>During a routine traffic stop you will stay in your vehicle and your weapon will be concealed therefore there is zero reason whatsoever to inform the LEO you&#39;re carrying assuming you&#39;re in a state which does not require informing (which Missouri does not require by the way). Informing the officer does not increase either his safety or yours at all and can easily be argued that it decreases the safety of both involved by adding undue stress to the situation. </p> <p>If you&#39;re asked to exit the vehicle or your weapon could be discovered for any other reason, keep your hands in plain sight and calmly inform the officer you a have a permit and that you&#39;re armed. Don&#39;t use the key words gun or weapon which could trigger a stressful response by the officer. From there simply follow the officers requests as to what he wants you to do. It&#39;s really not that big of a deal. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ccw-in-a-car-and-stopped-by-law-enforcement#post-991 Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:49:29 +0000 MadScienceMMA 991@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>Keeping your hands on the wheel is always a good idea. Be courteous, address the officer as &quot;Officer&quot; or &quot;Sir&quot;. Inform him/her in a calm tone that &quot;I am a legal permit holder, and I am carrying a firearm. How would you like to proceed, Sir/Ma&#39;am?&quot; and then do exactly what they tell you in a smooth and courteous fashion. If you&#39;re courteous to them, they&#39;ll usually be courteous to you.<br /> The odds of having an officer go off the rails because you&#39;re legally armed are exceptionally low. I have never had law enforcement react in anything other than a professional manner on the few occasions I&#39;ve had reason to inform them I was armed. (I always inform, even if state law says I don&#39;t have too. That&#39;s simply how I would want to be treated if I was in the officer&#39;s shoes.)</p> <p>Now if they pulled you over for being hammered...<br /> Or swiping a bus load of nuns while doing 150 in a 35...<br /> Or if you drift over the river into Illinois, then you&#39;ve got a serious issue. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ccw-in-a-car-and-stopped-by-law-enforcement#post-990 Fri, 16 Dec 2011 13:14:53 +0000 bpa5152 990@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>I do not carry yet, however, I have this fear that when stopped by law enforcement for a routine traffic violation that I might be arrested for having a CCW in my pocket. I live in St. Louis, Missouri. I have heard that you keep both hands on the wheel and tell the officer you are a licenced conceal carry. I am still afraid they will not like the fact that I have a gun. I know this is my right but how does law enformcent typically react to this? </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-974 Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:56:10 +0000 Claude 974@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>Coming in late to this discussion but I want to ask a question I have posed to 100s (literally) of firearms instructors. So far the silence has been deafening.</p> <p>Here is the question:<br /> What documented incidents are there of private citizens shooting an attacker with a .22 and subsequently being injured? Not interested in law enforcement officers trying to put the bracelets on a bad guy, only private citizens protecting themselves. Nor am I interested in &quot;<em>a friend of mine is a cop in another city and he was talking to a state trooper at a conference in another state who &#39;heard&#39; that an un-named federal agency said, etc.</em>&quot; </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-934 Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:40:34 +0000 swerve 934@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>Somebody is missing a good bet by not bringing out a shortened 38 Super case, 9x18JB I call it, for the locked breech (only) 380.s Just deepen the chamber by 1mm or so, mark the ammo boxes &quot;for use only in 9x18JB marked firearms&quot;, and offer a solid copper, hollowbased, 50 gr hp or segmented bullet at 1800 fps (in a 2.5&quot; barrel like the Keltec. </p> <p>Unless you just can&#39;t afford more for practice than a .22lr, and can&#39;t afford to have a &quot;practice only&quot; .22 and a &quot;carry&quot; 380, I see no reason to settle for less than the 380 Keltec. It&#39;s cheap, it&#39;s small and lw enough to always be with you, so why in the world settle for a .32 or .25, with half as much power, and which nobody reloads? Me, I see no reason to settle for less than the PF-9. It&#39;s quite &quot;pocketable&#39;, a great gun at a great price, and it offers at least 2x the power of the 380. If you load it with CorBon&#39;s 100gr PowRBall ammo, it offers nearly 3x the power of the little 380 keltec. Because the 9mm 100 gr jhp WILL expand in flesh, at the 1350 fps it achieves in the Keltec, and the factory 380 jhps won&#39;t expand in flesh when fired from 2.5&quot; barrels, I guarantee it. They get less than 850 fps. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-933 Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:34:27 +0000 swerve 933@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>I&#39;d much, much rather spend $1200 on a Rorbaugh 9mm than $$800 on a Sig 380! Sheesh, that&#39;s a lot of money, for a gun that might as well be a Star &quot;Pony&quot;, which can be had for $300 or so!. At least the Keltec 380 is a mere 9 ozs, smaller, and is DAO, so you need not worry about where it&#39;s pointed as you carry it. It&#39;s light enough to be worn as a necklace pendant, in a wrist holster, in a bra rig, or on back of neck, or between shoulder blades (normally, for women, under long hair). </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-932 Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:31:38 +0000 swerve 932@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>Pardon me, but a 38 snub is nothing great, either, guys. Especially not with standard choice ammo. the plus P 158 gr lhp will NOT reliably expand much, if at all in flesh, from a 2&quot; barrel, and the recoil is such that .30sec or longer is needed for repeat hits (on the chest, at 10 ft or so). If the locked breech 380 Keltec, Sig, Star, Colt, etc, is loaded properly (like an 85 gr Silvertip jhp at 1200 fps) it has a fair amount more usable power than the .38 snub (because it won&#39;t waste power on overpenetration) and it can get nearly 2x as fast repeat hits. It&#39;s also a lot more discrete in your front pants pocket than a .38 snub, which as Cooper used to say, &quot;makes you look like a potato smuggler&quot;. :-) </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/if-you-have-to-carry-a-380-which-ammo#post-902 Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:19:30 +0000 swerve 902@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>I shoot vermin type animals with it, and if you do this, you will be really, really unimpressed with most handgun loads, to include 230 gr jhp .45&#39;s. :-) The 380 really is very little more effective on the critters than a .22lr. Ditto .45 and 9mm &quot;ball&quot; fmj ammo. Altho most people will howl at that claim, they will never go test the loads to find out for themselves!</p> <p>The Keltec 380 is a locked breech design. As such, it can be safely reloaded to have about 2x the power of standard 380 ammo, but some claim that reloads &quot;can&quot; cause trouble in court. Me, I&#39;d rather have legal trouble than be dead or maimed from having my gun/load not stop an attacker. That having been said, look reall hard at the Keltec 9mm pocket model. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-789 Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:29:09 +0000 gunslinger454 789@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>The biggest benefit that I see with these micro .380s is that they do allow one to carry a handgun that is at least fairly effective when they otherwise would be likely to either carry something like a NAA mini revolver or even go unarmed. Modern defensive ammunition like Hornady&#39;s Critical Defense, while it doesn&#39;t make the .380 into a 9mm, it does significantly improve its performance, and the latest examples of the little guns like the Kahr P380 and the S&amp;W Bodyguard are even pretty easy to shoot, or, more importantly, easy to hit with. Unfortunately earlier models like those from Kel-Tec and its near carbon copy from Ruger are not easy to shoot or to hit with, but either sure beats a harsh word or a stern look!!!!!</p> <p>I&#39;ve been carrying my Kel-Tec P-3AT for several years now, since before it was cool. It is equipped with a CTC Laserguard, a +1 magazine extension and loaded with Hornady Critical Defense ammo to maximize its potential. Still, it is generally carried only as a backup to my Kimber TLE/RL II. Only when I can not carry a bigger gun, which is rare in my case, is it promoted to my primary defense piece., but it has allowed me to carry a fairly effective .380 at times when I would otherwise have been armed with a .22WMR mini revolver or just my folding knife. And that&#39;s a good thing! </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-738 Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:18:16 +0000 WayneRiddle 738@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>Just picked up a S&amp;W Bodyguard in .38 Special. Hope to take it out to the range soon. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-706 Sun, 22 May 2011 07:27:20 +0000 cshoff 706@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p><blockquote><strong>officer5 wrote:</strong><br /> I was reading the comments and I had to ask my self why I carry and my philosophies behind it.<br /> 1) My instructor told me that if you are just carring a gun and no cuffs then you are just looking to kill someone. When I carry, I have flex cuffs on me.<br /></blockquote></p> <p>I never advise civilians to attempt to physically restrain a person who has attempted/is attempting to use deadly force against them. In fact, to the contrary, I recommend they keep as much distance between themselves and their attacker as is possible. </p> <p><blockquote>2) As an off duty officer my object is to stop and secure not get into a firefight.<br /></blockquote></p> <p>As a civilian, my object is to avoid, evade, and/or escape. Only after every other option has been exhausted or deemed inadequate will I resort to the use of deadly force.</p> <p><blockquote>3) As a father it is for getting my family out of a hostile area safely.<br /></blockquote></p> <p>Abso-freakin-lutely. </p> <p><blockquote>4) When you point something at someone and your gun goes BANG, that should buy you time to find good cover and wait for the cops.<br /></blockquote></p> <p>Don&#39;t ever count on it to work that way. In fact, count on it to NOT work that way. </p> <p><blockquote>5) It is better to be a good witness than another dead body. Be carefull and make good decisions.</blockquote></p> <p>I agree. Shooting at another human being, for any reason, shouldn&#39;t be something any of us WANTS to do. </p> <p><blockquote>I carry a PPK/S and I love it.</blockquote></p> <p>It&#39;s certainly better than a pointed stick. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-705 Sat, 21 May 2011 22:47:46 +0000 officer5 705@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>I was reading the comments and I had to ask my self why I carry and my philosophies behind it.<br /> 1) My instructor told me that if you are just carring a gun and no cuffs then you are just looking to kill someone. When I carry, I have flex cuffs on me.<br /> 2) As an off duty officer my object is to stop and secure not get into a firefight.<br /> 3) As a father it is for getting my family out of a hostile area safely.<br /> 4) When you point something at someone and your gun goes BANG, that should buy you time to find good cover and wait for the cops.<br /> 5) It is better to be a good witness than another dead body. Be carefull and make good decisions.</p> <p>I carry a PPK/S and I love it. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/if-you-have-to-carry-a-380-which-ammo#post-694 Fri, 13 May 2011 16:14:43 +0000 kyglockman 694@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>i really like the hornady critical defense ammo for my 380s that is all i feed them, both my p3at and my db380 runs really well with this ammo, i also feed my kel tec pf9 with this ammo as well! i have not had any problems with it what so ever runnign in any gun i have use it in! all three guns shoot to point of aim with this ammo and shot better groupos then i can shoot out of them with that said any of the top brands out there will prob do good just train with it get real good with it and carry it! i love my little 380s on those days i just cant pack my g27 cause there is no way in hell i am leaving the house with out a gun at all, not going to happen! and with the exception of being attacked by 7 or more people i feel just as safe with my lil 380 as i do with my g27 cause i have put the training time in and know how to use it!! good luck stay safe </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-653 Wed, 20 Apr 2011 21:35:35 +0000 cshoff 653@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p><blockquote><strong>Alvin wrote:</strong><br /> I carry both a Walther PK380 and a Beretta 9000s .40 and I personally feel that both handguns are well with in their means as personal protection. I have not heard one person shot with a .380 complain that it was a inadaquate cartridge! German Politzie used .380 caliber for many, many years and they never had a problem with that cartridge. When I carry my PK380, I have no doubts that if I am accousted, that .380 round will penetrate where I aim *sternum*. I have heard people complain that a .380 round will not penetrate more than 8 inches...my God....I dont know of too many people that have more than 8 inches of chest before their hearts, if they do, they have part gorilla in them!</blockquote></p> <p>Your scenario relies on the assumption that you will, A) have an unobstructed, front-on shot to the heart, and B) your projectile will hit precisely where you intend. Unfortunately, it rarely works out that way in a real lethal force encounter. More often than not, the bullet encounters a hand, a arm, clothing of some variety, or the adversary is at a less than optimal angle in relation to the direction of fire and the bullet must first pass through an upper arm or perhaps a shoulder blade, before it can make it to the high center chest area an reach the vital organs we are trying to disrupt. Any of those factors can have a dramatic effect on the way the projectile behaves. In short, we certainly can&#39;t count on ideal conditions being present when the moment of truth arrives. </p> <p>Personally, I&#39;d much rather choose a more powerful cartridge that will more reliably provide me with adequate penetration ahead of time, than to find myself wishing I would have once the SHTF.</p> <p>BTW - Welcome to PDN, Alvin. Good to have you here. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-648 Sun, 17 Apr 2011 22:17:35 +0000 Alvin 648@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>I carry both a Walther PK380 and a Beretta 9000s .40 and I personally feel that both handguns are well with in their means as personal protection. I have not heard one person shot with a .380 complain that it was a inadaquate cartridge! German Politzie used .380 caliber for many, many years and they never had a problem with that cartridge. When I carry my PK380, I have no doubts that if I am accousted, that .380 round will penetrate where I aim *sternum*. I have heard people complain that a .380 round will not penetrate more than 8 inches...my God....I dont know of too many people that have more than 8 inches of chest before their hearts, if they do, they have part gorilla in them! </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/if-you-have-to-carry-a-380-which-ammo#post-645 Fri, 01 Apr 2011 08:02:22 +0000 Renigeid 645@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>Personally, I would feel safer with a rock. The 380 cal is definitely not a servive cal. Jim </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-605 Wed, 02 Feb 2011 12:21:05 +0000 pioneer461 605@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>I&#39;m of the school which believes the minimum pistol caliber for effective self defense is .38 spl +P, with self defense ammo. I have a J-frame backup that I carry at work, loaded with Speer Gold Dot, 135 gr. Short Barrel ammo. My carry gun for work is an issued .40 caliber, and my personal carry arms are either .40 or .45 acp. A .380 isn&#39;t an option for me. </p> <p>Having said all of that, I own what is perhaps the, if not one of the smallest micro-guns. I have an NAA mini-revolver, with .22 lr &amp; .22 magnum cylinders. Do I carry it for self defense? NO. I own it and often shoot it because it is fun. Accuracy is not one of the little revolver&#39;s strong points, but I&#39;ve gotten pretty fair groups at about 10 yards by point shooting. Would I ever try competition or qualification with it? Fuggitaboudit. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-517 Tue, 07 Dec 2010 05:46:12 +0000 medbear 517@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>I alternate between my snubbie colt .38 (my Pharmacy pocket gun) and my Kimber .45. I only like shooting the Colt if I wear gloves. The Kimber is fun. Having said that, I picked up a &quot;mousegun&quot; .45 Taurus made of polymers and other recycled pop-bottle stuff. I should have shot it first because it is not comfortable. I sort of dread training with it. I thing I am gonna choose to hump a little more mass and carry something I am trained on.<br /> In defense of the Taurus, it is quite accurate and it operated fine. But the next day I had trouble typing on the Pharmacy Computers because my wrist ached.</p> <p>Maybe I am a fool, but I want to get a RUGER LCR in .357 for the lightness in my pocket but I don&#39;t know how bad it will be for training. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-516 Sun, 28 Nov 2010 09:03:45 +0000 WayneRiddle 516@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>While on this subject, andyone try out the new S&amp;W Bodyguard handguns in 38 +p or .380? </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-497 Wed, 10 Nov 2010 04:43:01 +0000 Glockster23 497@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>My wife currently is carrying a Kahr CW-9, mine is either a Glock 27 or 23. The wife&#39;s insistance on the Kahr, helped prove the point I having been trying to make to her. Smaller, lighter pistols are a &quot;bear&quot; to shoot. Throw in, the DA only trigger and you have to completely re-learn how to shoot that weapon.</p> <p>My 27 is about as small as I want to get, even though I want a Rorbough &quot;real bad&quot;. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-478 Fri, 29 Oct 2010 21:23:58 +0000 yyao12345 478@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>Thank you for the information,<a href="http://www.2008jersey.com"> ravens football jerseys </a> let me better understand here, gave me a lot of help. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-462 Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:14:53 +0000 Snowman 462@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>I purchased a Taurus PT709 Slim about six months ago. I really like it. That being said, I am a Glock man, and carry one daily backed up with a J-Frame sbubby or Taurus Model 85UL.</p> <p>I have on more than one occaision carried the PT709 Slim as my primary in an IWB holster with the Taurus TCP in my left front pocket.</p> <p>Both Taurus pistols are totally reliable and have the best triggers in the sub-compact group. I have a Khar 9mm and I don&#39;t like it nearly as much as I like the Taurus pistols.</p> <p>The little TCP even has the advantage of a frame-mounted slide release....my Kel Tec and my Ruger LCP are not so-equipped.</p> <p>Still...I prefer a full sized fighting handgun for SD. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-416 Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:23:16 +0000 ke4sky 416@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>Fairbairn and Sykes taught Applegate to fire rapid double- and triple-taps they described as &quot;bursts&quot; in order to make up for the low power of typical FMJ pistol bullets. This was the method taught to OSS operatives at Camp Ritchey, MD during WWII as well as during the cold war era to CIA clandestine services personnel at &quot;the farm.&quot; </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-414 Thu, 23 Sep 2010 07:19:34 +0000 ke4sky 414@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>Many years ago I tested a variety of .32 ACP and .380 autopistols to determine which of the ones then currently available were the most natural pointers using Applegate technique, and were most reliable. The Colt M1903 Model M pocket model, Type II without the magazine safety was widely issued during WWII and into the Vietnam era. It was normally carried with its chamber empty, hammer cocked and safety off with loaded magazine inserted, racking the slide with the weak hand concurrent with the draw stroke. This method originated with the Hong Kong police, but is widely attributed to the Israeli&#39;s who learned it from the British.</p> <p>Testing under car-jacking and kidnap scenarios determined that a pocket pistol must be capable of safe carry with its chamber loaded, and be capable of immediate fire by means of the trigger stroke only, without having to manipulate a mechanical safety lever. German police experience greatly influenced training and doctrine with the pocket pistol. If a pistol has to be fired through the pocket it is best to do so holding it inverted and slightly raised so that ejected cases fall down into the pocket away from the gun, reducing the risk of jams. DA revolvers with a fully shrouded or enclosed hammer are best for firing through the pocket, as any exposed hammer may snag in lining.</p> <p>Best choices for pocket pistols available pre-1970 for this purpose were the Walther PP and Mauser HSc. Of current offerings the Beretta Tomcat INOX in my opinion is more reliable, has a better grip, is a more natural pointer and is more accurate than the Ken-Tec. Its double-action trigger also permits a repeat strike on a misfired primer by repeating the trigger stroke, whereas the Ruger LCP requires the slide be racked to eject the misfired round and to chamber another one. </p> <p>The Beretta system works better for people previously schooled in DA revolvers whose first impulse is to simply restroke the trigger, whereas the Ruger system is suitable only for trained and practiced in single-action autopistols such as the M1911, and whose whose first impulse upon a misfire is Tap-Rack-Bang!</p> <p>If combat isn’t your job, but you have other essential, and dangerous tasks to perform, the purpose of a gun carried by a clandestine operator was to neutralize immediate threats from contact to 20 feet to facilitate escape to complete the mission. In the words of the late Harry Archer, “If you stand and fight you’ll never live to shoot them all.” The goal was rapidity of fire, accurate, multiple hits at close range, maximum control, with minimum muzzle flash and recoil, discreet profile and minimum weight and cube of “the package.” </p> <p>While a .32 ACP is never first choice as a defense gun, it is better to have any gun than none, if you might be tempted NOT to carry and leave a larger gun at home and thus take your chances. Whenever using a marginal caliber, shot placement, reliability and penetration are most important. In the .32 ACP stick to European hardball, such as RWS, Sellier &amp; Bellot, Privi Partisan or Fiocchi, which actually does give 900+ f.p.s. in chronograph tests, whereas US makes tested seldom get 850 and use a lighter 71-gr. vs. 73 grain bullet. No hollowpoint ammunition currently available in .32 ACP produces reliable expansion in barrels as short as 2.5 inches. When fired from barrels longer than 3 inches which do permit expansion, penetration is inadequate. Some pistols steadfastly refuse to feed hollowpoints and the lighter weight bullets in some popular ammunition have insufficient recoil impulse to reliably cycle older WWII era Euro pistols balanced for 73-grain hardball.</p> <p>We are not talking &quot;one shot stops&quot; here and do not make comparisions on a round-for-round basis. For a pocket gun to have any effectiveness the user must practice &quot;shoot and scoot&quot; to produce multiple hits quickly. Think of a .32 ACP as firing a single round of buckshot from a sawed off shotgun in which 8 pellets are fired serially in about 2-2.5 seconds, versus instantly. </p> http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-373 Mon, 23 Aug 2010 11:31:08 +0000 parabarbarian 373@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <p>Given current technology I would, personally, never carry anything less than a 38 spl for self defense. About the only way I can see to improve the &quot;mouse gun&quot; cartridges listed with current technology is to use them to deliver a potent toxin. Ideally, for self defense, the payload would be quick to paralyze but slow to kill thereby enabling stopping an attacker even with marginal penetration but still allowing time for EMT or ER personnel to administer the antidote. However, right now such a bullet would probably be illegal as hell so I&#39;ll stick to the 38 spl as my working minimum. </p>