Personal Defense Network Forum » Topic: Ammunition

Personal Defense Network Forum » Topic: Ammunition http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ en Sun, 05 Feb 2012 23:54:53 +0000 cshoff on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition/page/2#post-523 Thu, 09 Dec 2010 22:23:02 +0000 cshoff 523@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ +1 to what Grant said regarding the Glasers. In addition, if you think functional reliability testing through your gun with premium hollow points is expensive, just wait until you see the price of those Glasers. Here is a link to some test results from Brass Fetcher on the 9mm. I think the "conclusion" to the report is very interesting: <a href="http://www.brassfetcher.com/Brassfetcher_evaluates_9mm_Glaser_Safety_Slug.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.brassfetcher.com/Brassfetcher_evaluates_9mm_Glaser_Safety_Slug.pdf</a> <blockquote>Conclusion Having evaluated this particular line of Safety Slug against standardized barriers and ballistic media, a few conclusions may be made. First, the penetration of the tested round against a bare gelatin block is wholly inadequate when viewed in light of the FBI minimum penetration depth of 12 in calibrated ballistic gelatin. This is exacerbated by the fact that the tested block was out-of-calibration, in that a steel BB impacting at 590 ft/sec is to penetrate to 8.5cm in a "perfect block". Due to the multiple sub-projectiles of the tested bullets, a correction procedure was not undertaken to determine the penetration depth that this ammunition would achieve in an ideal block. In any case, the penetration would be less in an ideal block, due to the lower-than-standard viscosity of the tested block. Perhaps the point of greatest interest is the failure of the bullet to reduce penetration when fired through interior walls, as might occur in the event of a complete miss during a defensive shooting event inside a structure - lethality of the round is actually increased by the presence of an intervening interior wall.</blockquote> GrantCunningham on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition/page/2#post-521 Wed, 08 Dec 2010 09:24:33 +0000 GrantCunningham 521@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <blockquote>medbear wrote: So guys, tell me what you think of the GLAZER safety rounds?</blockquote> Not much, and not often. In order to affect physiological failure a bullet has to do two things: get to something the body finds immediately important, and do rapid and significant damage to that thing when it gets there. Glasers (and the other 'magic bullets' of similar construction/concept) suffer from poor penetration, often producing shallow wounds that do not reach vital areas. They fail the first task. I can see no reason to even consider them for any sort of defensive use. medbear on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition/page/2#post-520 Wed, 08 Dec 2010 05:42:54 +0000 medbear 520@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ So guys, tell me what you think of the GLAZER safety rounds? billv on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition/page/2#post-514 Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:30:03 +0000 billv 514@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ In my 45 XDM I tried 100 rounds each from Speer Gold Dot, Winchester PDX1, Remington Golden Saber, and Federal C45D, all JHP 230 gr, normal pressure. Of the four manufacturers, the Winchester had a partial feed 4 times out of the 100 rounds. I won't use that for personal defense. Not sure if it was perhaps a bad batch, smaller powder charge, stronger main spring due to gun newness or what but it doesn't matter. I use what feeds the gun without jamming. I normally load the Speer Gold Dot's and have extra Federal and Remington on hand. Your feeding might vary. BillV cshoff on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-513 Wed, 24 Nov 2010 22:36:42 +0000 cshoff 513@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <blockquote>SgtHogan wrote: Hi guys, I'm new to the forums. I just happened to browse through and saw the topic of ammo so I figured I'd throw in my two cents. I like Hornady ammo. It's never let me down, it's a well known brand, you can get just about whatever caliber and bullet type you want from FMJ to hollow points, it burns pretty clean, and it's resonably priced. For practice I use whatever is cheapest, but I keep a few boxes of Hornady JHP/XTP for personal defense. What do you guys think on the JHP/XTP rounds? I also use Hornady in my rifles for deer hunting. I've found it's just as good as the more expensive stuff. In fact some of my rifles group better with Hornady than just about everything else.</blockquote> Honestly, I don't do enough precision rifle shooting to notice much difference from one ammo brand to the next, for the most part. My .30-06 rifle seems to really like the 180 Grn. Remington Core Lokt, so that is the diet I generally feed it. As to the Hornady XTP ammo, as long as you do your job with proper shot placement, it should serve you well. Welcome to the forums! SgtHogan on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-511 Tue, 23 Nov 2010 11:25:48 +0000 SgtHogan 511@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Hi guys, I'm new to the forums. I just happened to browse through and saw the topic of ammo so I figured I'd throw in my two cents. I like Hornady ammo. It's never let me down, it's a well known brand, you can get just about whatever caliber and bullet type you want from FMJ to hollow points, it burns pretty clean, and it's resonably priced. For practice I use whatever is cheapest, but I keep a few boxes of Hornady JHP/XTP for personal defense. What do you guys think on the JHP/XTP rounds? I also use Hornady in my rifles for deer hunting. I've found it's just as good as the more expensive stuff. In fact some of my rifles group better with Hornady than just about everything else. Stephen on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-508 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 21:38:20 +0000 Stephen 508@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <blockquote>Glockster23 wrote: Congrats on your 19. My 23 ( same frame as the 19) is my favorite weapon. I as well, like the PMC FMJ (practice stuff) as it seems to be cleaner than some others. While at the range, practice using targets other than sillouettes. Something simple as paper plates or an empty 50 round ammo box can help focus your shooting. The point is more practice at putting the rounds on a specific point can help increase overall accuracy.</blockquote> Hi Glockster, Unfortunitly here in NYC its a indoor range those items are a big no, no.. however I am getting better my first 5 rnds are head shots then they drift to about 3 rnds or so to arms/hands w/gun then straight down to about 30 in the left kidney area and the rest in the lower hip artery vien area but when I first took out the glock out of the box it was all 50 rnds in the no, no's:) I was able to pass NYS 47 hour armed guard course though! Glockster23 on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-507 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 04:20:15 +0000 Glockster23 507@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Congrats on your 19. My 23 ( same frame as the 19) is my favorite weapon. I as well, like the PMC FMJ (practice stuff) as it seems to be cleaner than some others. While at the range, practice using targets other than sillouettes. Something simple as paper plates or an empty 50 round ammo box can help focus your shooting. The point is more practice at putting the rounds on a specific point can help increase overall accuracy. Stephen on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-506 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 23:29:52 +0000 Stephen 506@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Hi All, New to the board & new to handgun shooting! I've had my G19 since this past May & gone back & forth between lawman, PMC. Between the 2 I prefer PMC at 115g & like others posted I practice defense shooting at he local range & I get kidded alot about center mass:) I just reply If I'm hitting the bad guy target hen he's going down and it doesn't matter where I'm hitting just as long its on target. Glockster23 on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-499 Wed, 10 Nov 2010 05:47:59 +0000 Glockster23 499@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I like fast, flying rounds. I carry 135 grain CorBon in all my 40's, 115 grain in my 9's and 185's in my 1911's. ke4sky on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-447 Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:11:37 +0000 ke4sky 447@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ In .38 Special revolvers which are not +P rated the Winchester 110-gr. Silvertip has given good accuracy and expansion results from my 2-inch snubbies firing into water. It expands MUCH better than the 125-gr. Silvertip +P load which is loaded with a slower powder and optimized for longer barrels. For a PRACTICE load I assemble handloads using the Winchester 110-grain jacketed HP component bullet <a href="http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1390159765" rel="nofollow">http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1390159765</a> with 4.7 grains of Bullseye, which shoots to the same point of impact. In the +P rated and .357 guns I also use the FBI load either Winchesters X38SPD or Remington R38S12. For PRACTICE I reload the Remington 158-gr. .358 diameter lead SWC component bullet <a href="http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1601162951" rel="nofollow">http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1601162951</a> with 4 grains of Bullseye in .38 Special brass, which approximates the +P velocity and recoil with consistent point of impact. Our group uses a Dillon RL-550B and buys Bullseye in 8-lb. caddies. Wouldn't think of using anything else. parabarbarian on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-446 Tue, 19 Oct 2010 21:24:03 +0000 parabarbarian 446@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I'm kinda old fashioned. I like the 158 gr SWCHP (sometimes called the FBI load) in the larger guns and the 125 gr nyclad in the lightweight things. Bruce on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-441 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:39:52 +0000 Bruce 441@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I prefer the ammo that I can buy in quantity. I usually run win white box hollow points, I have the bullets in component form and they work well, seem to be an accurate, and more importantly, reliable bullet shape. I cant really afford to buy the premiums in enough quantity to be sure of reliability in different guns. Nash C. on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-386 Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:28:57 +0000 Nash C. 386@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <a href="http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-Defense-newammo/" rel="nofollow">http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-Defense-newammo/</a> kyglockman on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-339 Tue, 03 Aug 2010 19:32:49 +0000 kyglockman 339@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ i still use the old out dated hydra shok hollow point! but that is one reason i do! it has been around forever and all the rounds produced and use cannot be wrong it is proven!! yes there are some new rounds out there that might be a lil better but the hydra shoks will do what i need them to do! stay safe Chris Ishmael on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-337 Tue, 03 Aug 2010 18:19:50 +0000 Chris Ishmael 337@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I use some real exotic ammo in my 1911 - plain old Winchester white box 230gr. hollow points :-) They feed perfectly, they're combat accurate and they're cheap. joemerchant24 on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-306 Tue, 13 Jul 2010 09:00:12 +0000 joemerchant24 306@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ My choice, Remington Golden Bullet, has a legal/political spin to it. Our local PD and their tac team carry the Golden Bullet as their load. It functions fine in my carry guns, and accuracy is combat effective. I know it may be small insurance, but that way I figure if I am ever involved in a dynamic critical incident I can deflect some "uber-cop-killer-hella-fatal-velociraptor-slayer ammunition" claims from the CA as well as the civil attorney in the inevitable lawsuit. Will it help? Not sure. Will it hurt? Doubtful. YMMV JackMcL on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-238 Sun, 23 May 2010 21:25:41 +0000 JackMcL 238@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Swade587, Thanks for the advice. A good friend of mine is an officer, and just promoted to detective at my local police department. They use Speer Gold Dot Duty ammunition in a 165 grain. A bonded JHP. I defiantly agree with your statement I use the same ammo as our police department. My local sheriff department uses Gold Dot Duty Ammo, in a 180 grain. ZenGunfighter, I used Cor-bon for years, but it got hard to find. My main carry is a Glock 23, I use mainly Winchester PDX1 and Gold Dot. I have heard pre-segmented works well. I’ve been using bonded for a while. Like Grant said above, it depends why my gun shop has in stock. One thing for sure, this is turning out to be a great forum… Thanks a lot guys. ZenGunFighter on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-234 Sun, 23 May 2010 08:03:03 +0000 ZenGunFighter 234@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ We are SO lucky with our ammo choices these days. There are so many good rounds out there, in a wide variety of performance parameters. I'm a civilian, head of security for a regional chain of banks. I work in enviroments where there are lots of innocent bystanders. It's in the Tropics, so clothing is lightweight. With all of our choices, defining my situation, I can 'dial in' the appropriate ammo. I carry a G26. I can NOT afford a through and through, perforating shot on the badguy. So I pick ammo that should only have about 10" of penetration. I want a bullet the breaks apart and sheds its jacket, making multiple wound channels and losing energy quickly. I used to carry Triton Quik-Shok. It was developed by the man that invented the Hydra-Shok bullet. Pre-segmented longitudinally in to 3 segments. But I can't find it anymore. Now I carry Corbon 115gr. JHP +P+. I get 1325fps out of my G26. I've tested it in a Fackler box and it does what I want. Swade587 on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-228 Sat, 22 May 2010 20:06:50 +0000 Swade587 228@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Another bit of good of advice that I once heard was, ''Consult your local police department as to what ammo they carry, if its legal for civilian use, get some of that." As for the Why?: Police department are always worried about liability, so choice of ammo is extremely critical for them. Its usually a reputable manufacturer=Less Liability. Its Factory specs (no handloaded franken-bullets)=Less liability. It also allows for some tiny facet of legal defense when asked about your choice of ammo..."It's what the police use" can go a long way in court. JackMcL on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-227 Sat, 22 May 2010 20:00:38 +0000 JackMcL 227@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Grant, Thank you so very much for the info! Your answers cut through all the B.S. I have been sifting through. Your explanation of middle weight making a good balance made perfect sense. So many times before the answer I would get was, “because”….. I especially liked your reference to a star trek phaser… :-) I have been using Winchester PDX1, Speer Gold Dot, Hornady Tap and Golden Saber, depending what they have in stock. I use mostly 165 and sometimes 180 grain, again depending what the have in stock. I have run a lot of these through both Glocks without any feed problems. So I tend to stay with said rounds out of comfort. I always shoot jacketed, factory loads, for practice. After 6 or 8 months I shoot my “old” carry ammo, and buy new carry ammo. Again, I can’t thank you enough for the info. Thanks again, Jack GrantCunningham on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-223 Sat, 22 May 2010 14:21:41 +0000 GrantCunningham 223@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <blockquote>JackMcL wrote: You said “ Get a hollow point in the middle of the weight range for the caliber”. Is that to say in a .40 S&W, a 165 grain is better than a 180 grain? If so, why?</blockquote> The middle weights tend to produce a good balance of performance across a wide range of conditions. A bullet that's too light tends to produce shallow wounds, while bullets that are too heavy tend to have excessive penetration. They also tend to function better. None of this is hard-and-fast, you understand, but the recommendation has proven to be fairly accurate over a long period of time. <blockquote> Is a bonded JHP the way to go? Is the Winchester PDX1, a better choice than say, the Hornady Tap? If so why?</blockquote> Frankly, you're now getting into the realm of "how many angels will fit on the head of a pin" territory. There may be some small difference in performance between them in a very specific category, but I have yet to see any evidence that there is a huge performance differential in self defense. There is no such thing as a magic bullet. Picking a PDX1 bullet over a TAP bullet isn't going to make the round perform so much better that you'll have the equivalent of a Star Trek phaser in your hands. Seriously - it doesn't matter. It just doesn't. That's why I say to pick a modern hollowpoint from a major manufacturer, and make sure it works in your gun. Everything else is just hot air. Frankly, I'd base my choice on what my favorite gunshop stocks on a regular basis. I'm dead serious. <blockquote> I saw a post on another forum that stated Federal Hydro-shok’s are out dated, and the newer rounds are much more efficient, but no one would say why. </blockquote> The HydraShock is a very old design, and the only reason it's still being produced is because it has phenomenal name recognition. The post in the center has a tendency to clog with fabric when going through clothing, and the round sometimes has feeding issues in certain guns. I wouldn't feel totally unprepared carrying it, but plain hollowpoints have shown to work a little better. Again, any of the more modern hollowpoint designs is what you want. Major manufacturer = Speer, Hornady, Winchester, Federal, Remington. Gold Dot, TAP, Ranger SXT/PDX1, Golden Sabre, HST - I wouldn't have a problem carrying any one in my gun. There just isn't enough difference between them to get all worked up about. <blockquote>What does Rob carry in his .40? And you guessed it….. Why? :-))</blockquote> Dunno. But I'll bet he'll say something along the line of "whatever I can get!" JackMcL on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-222 Sat, 22 May 2010 11:48:15 +0000 JackMcL 222@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Would anyone know of an accurate site or resource to find these answers? Thanks, Jack JackMcL on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-220 Thu, 20 May 2010 23:50:58 +0000 JackMcL 220@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Hey, your right, the text does default to italics.... JackMcL on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-219 Thu, 20 May 2010 23:47:17 +0000 JackMcL 219@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Thanks Grant, I totally agree, range development is critical. The best round is: P-l-a-c-e-m-e-n-t. And always make sure the ammo feeds every time. You said “ Get a hollow point in the middle of the weight range for the caliber”. Is that to say in a .40 S&W, a 165 grain is better than a 180 grain? If so, why? Is a bonded JHP the way to go? Is the Winchester PDX1, a better choice than say, the Hornady Tap? If so why? I saw a post on another forum that stated Federal Hydro-shok’s are out dated, and the newer rounds are much more efficient, but no one would say why. Its questions like these, we want to know the answer to, without getting caught up in all the hype and B.S. out there. We don’t want to be a pain, we’re just seeking an accurate resource to answer our questions. I carry a Glock 23, or sometimes a Glock 27. I seek really solid advice on what ammo to use. To cut to the chase, I ask the question: What does Rob carry in his .40? And you guessed it….. Why? :-)) Thanks, Jack GrantCunningham on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-218 Thu, 20 May 2010 14:23:47 +0000 GrantCunningham 218@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Hmmm...looks like a problem with the board's text formatting. I didn't want that to be all italics, really! -=[ Grant ]=- GrantCunningham on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-217 Thu, 20 May 2010 14:22:13 +0000 GrantCunningham 217@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ You're right, this is an issue. It's also part of why PDN exists. Let's face it - it's sexier to write about the latest and greatest bullet than to say "get a hollowpoint somewhere in the middle of the weight range for the caliber, from a major manufacturer, and make sure it works in your gun." The latter is better advice, but the former makes more money! New ammunition, like new guns, gives the opportunity for a magazine to fill editorial space AND sell ad space. It's win-win for them, but leads the general population to worry incessantly about what round they should be carrying. Until next month, of course, when it starts all over again! Your time, effort and energy are best spent on the range developing a realistic skill set, rather than 'staking out' the ammo shelves for new arrivals. -=[ Grant ]=- JackMcL on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-216 Thu, 20 May 2010 09:47:04 +0000 JackMcL 216@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I sympathize with Nckkangrga, there is a ton of blogs forums and hype out there on what to use and what not to use. “This round is more accurate that that round” or “this round has better expansion” “180 is better than 165”… If you ask 40 people, you get 40 different answers. I started watching Best Defense, and think its outstanding. After reading Rob’s bio, I myself have often wondered what .40 Rob carries himself, and why? Mainly because of his vast background and expertise in this area. Coming to PDN seems much more reliable than going to your local gun shop or Googling the internet. God forbid, any of us having to resort to deadly force to protect ourselves or our loved ones. But if your not a Ballistics guru, choosing the right ammunition can be a difficult task. With that said: Rob? What .40 s&w ammunition do you personally carry? Thanks PileOfBrass on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-177 Sat, 13 Mar 2010 06:26:50 +0000 PileOfBrass 177@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I used to tell my students/customers..."don't lose sleep thinking about whats the best hollow point, but focus on making the shots that count". Seems to me, a miss with the latest, super accurate, ultra expanding projectile, is still a miss. The only people counting the misses are the lawyers. If your shot is off by 1" in the bad guys chest, YOU are the only one to know (or care). I always figured in regards to auto-loaders anyway, that reliable function was paramount. worrying about a half inch at 25yrds seems pointless (to me) in a defensive sidearm. by the way, GREAT forum! stay safe Rob Pincus on "Ammunition" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/ammunition#post-161 Mon, 01 Mar 2010 16:00:43 +0000 Rob Pincus 161@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Nick, This is a defensive forum on the Personal Defense Network. Bullseye shooting is not something we cover. More print space has been wasted on minutia of accuracy from defensive pistols than anything else in the history of the gun magazines. A .5 inch difference at 25 yards from a rest is irrelevant to defensive shooting. As noted above, you are probably not going to see any meaningful deviation in your defensive gun at defensive distances while shooting realistically with ANY modern factory ammunition. If you do, let us know. -RJP