Personal Defense Network Forum » Topic: Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms

Personal Defense Network Forum » Topic: Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ en Fri, 10 Feb 2012 05:51:25 +0000 Froglives on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-995 Mon, 19 Dec 2011 21:25:17 +0000 Froglives 995@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <blockquote>cshoff wrote: That is an interesting question, Rob. I would guess it's kinda like a "which came first" situation; did the consumer demand for smaller handguns come first, or did manufacturers "create" a demand by pushing the smaller weapons? One thing is for sure; the popularity of smaller, lighter handguns has certainly exploded for one reason or another.</blockquote> It's all about the "sales" people only buy after they overcome objections, even when they really really want something. So to me, when I see an item surge in sales, I try to see what objections are being overcome by that product, enabling it so rocket up in sales without any salesperson overcoming objections to move it. The comments about a 380 possibly being perceived as not potentially as lethal may be right on target if you look at the amount of non gun-loving individuals procuring weapons and carry permits for personal protection. I would add that folks like that might not normally adjust their dress for comfort as it relates to shooting, personal protection, or out and out combat in their leisure time, and are probably even more restricted at work. My wife for example would much rather crush your skull with any available object, put a small cute gun to your forehead, or stick a knife in your throat then dress less than stunning. Much higher risk I know, but then I am twice her size and wouldn't want to take my chances. Personally I am looking at smaller calibers as I am a big man, and on top of that am carrying extra weight (like most Americans) I find it hard to conceal my truck keys, duty phone, blade, let alone a gun. You folks all seem to have very nice guns, I would love to carry any of them in any caliber, but then I live in California. Until things change I am very limited, I will say though my home defense gun, is a Tipman 98, it shoots .68 caliber glass, 3-5 per second at over 400 fps. Less than all weapons mentioned but very effective at putting anyone on their ass. All in all I would say a lot of folks that are not really ready to kill someone are buying guns for protection, and many of them have lifestyles / clothing styles / body size issues that prohibit trying to conceal a larger type weapon. Thank you for all the information on the site Cheers Claude on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-974 Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:56:10 +0000 Claude 974@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Coming in late to this discussion but I want to ask a question I have posed to 100s (literally) of firearms instructors. So far the silence has been deafening. Here is the question: What documented incidents are there of private citizens shooting an attacker with a .22 and subsequently being injured? Not interested in law enforcement officers trying to put the bracelets on a bad guy, only private citizens protecting themselves. Nor am I interested in "a friend of mine is a cop in another city and he was talking to a state trooper at a conference in another state who 'heard' that an un-named federal agency said, etc." swerve on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-934 Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:40:34 +0000 swerve 934@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Somebody is missing a good bet by not bringing out a shortened 38 Super case, 9x18JB I call it, for the locked breech (only) 380.s Just deepen the chamber by 1mm or so, mark the ammo boxes "for use only in 9x18JB marked firearms", and offer a solid copper, hollowbased, 50 gr hp or segmented bullet at 1800 fps (in a 2.5" barrel like the Keltec. Unless you just can't afford more for practice than a .22lr, and can't afford to have a "practice only" .22 and a "carry" 380, I see no reason to settle for less than the 380 Keltec. It's cheap, it's small and lw enough to always be with you, so why in the world settle for a .32 or .25, with half as much power, and which nobody reloads? Me, I see no reason to settle for less than the PF-9. It's quite "pocketable', a great gun at a great price, and it offers at least 2x the power of the 380. If you load it with CorBon's 100gr PowRBall ammo, it offers nearly 3x the power of the little 380 keltec. Because the 9mm 100 gr jhp WILL expand in flesh, at the 1350 fps it achieves in the Keltec, and the factory 380 jhps won't expand in flesh when fired from 2.5" barrels, I guarantee it. They get less than 850 fps. swerve on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-933 Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:34:27 +0000 swerve 933@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I'd much, much rather spend $1200 on a Rorbaugh 9mm than $$800 on a Sig 380! Sheesh, that's a lot of money, for a gun that might as well be a Star "Pony", which can be had for $300 or so!. At least the Keltec 380 is a mere 9 ozs, smaller, and is DAO, so you need not worry about where it's pointed as you carry it. It's light enough to be worn as a necklace pendant, in a wrist holster, in a bra rig, or on back of neck, or between shoulder blades (normally, for women, under long hair). swerve on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-932 Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:31:38 +0000 swerve 932@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Pardon me, but a 38 snub is nothing great, either, guys. Especially not with standard choice ammo. the plus P 158 gr lhp will NOT reliably expand much, if at all in flesh, from a 2" barrel, and the recoil is such that .30sec or longer is needed for repeat hits (on the chest, at 10 ft or so). If the locked breech 380 Keltec, Sig, Star, Colt, etc, is loaded properly (like an 85 gr Silvertip jhp at 1200 fps) it has a fair amount more usable power than the .38 snub (because it won't waste power on overpenetration) and it can get nearly 2x as fast repeat hits. It's also a lot more discrete in your front pants pocket than a .38 snub, which as Cooper used to say, "makes you look like a potato smuggler". :-) gunslinger454 on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-789 Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:29:09 +0000 gunslinger454 789@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ The biggest benefit that I see with these micro .380s is that they do allow one to carry a handgun that is at least fairly effective when they otherwise would be likely to either carry something like a NAA mini revolver or even go unarmed. Modern defensive ammunition like Hornady's Critical Defense, while it doesn't make the .380 into a 9mm, it does significantly improve its performance, and the latest examples of the little guns like the Kahr P380 and the S&W Bodyguard are even pretty easy to shoot, or, more importantly, easy to hit with. Unfortunately earlier models like those from Kel-Tec and its near carbon copy from Ruger are not easy to shoot or to hit with, but either sure beats a harsh word or a stern look!!!!! I've been carrying my Kel-Tec P-3AT for several years now, since before it was cool. It is equipped with a CTC Laserguard, a +1 magazine extension and loaded with Hornady Critical Defense ammo to maximize its potential. Still, it is generally carried only as a backup to my Kimber TLE/RL II. Only when I can not carry a bigger gun, which is rare in my case, is it promoted to my primary defense piece., but it has allowed me to carry a fairly effective .380 at times when I would otherwise have been armed with a .22WMR mini revolver or just my folding knife. And that's a good thing! WayneRiddle on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-738 Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:18:16 +0000 WayneRiddle 738@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Just picked up a S&W Bodyguard in .38 Special. Hope to take it out to the range soon. cshoff on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-706 Sun, 22 May 2011 07:27:20 +0000 cshoff 706@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <blockquote>officer5 wrote: I was reading the comments and I had to ask my self why I carry and my philosophies behind it. 1) My instructor told me that if you are just carring a gun and no cuffs then you are just looking to kill someone. When I carry, I have flex cuffs on me. </blockquote> I never advise civilians to attempt to physically restrain a person who has attempted/is attempting to use deadly force against them. In fact, to the contrary, I recommend they keep as much distance between themselves and their attacker as is possible. <blockquote>2) As an off duty officer my object is to stop and secure not get into a firefight. </blockquote> As a civilian, my object is to avoid, evade, and/or escape. Only after every other option has been exhausted or deemed inadequate will I resort to the use of deadly force. <blockquote>3) As a father it is for getting my family out of a hostile area safely. </blockquote> Abso-freakin-lutely. <blockquote>4) When you point something at someone and your gun goes BANG, that should buy you time to find good cover and wait for the cops. </blockquote> Don't ever count on it to work that way. In fact, count on it to NOT work that way. <blockquote>5) It is better to be a good witness than another dead body. Be carefull and make good decisions.</blockquote> I agree. Shooting at another human being, for any reason, shouldn't be something any of us WANTS to do. <blockquote>I carry a PPK/S and I love it.</blockquote> It's certainly better than a pointed stick. officer5 on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-705 Sat, 21 May 2011 22:47:46 +0000 officer5 705@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I was reading the comments and I had to ask my self why I carry and my philosophies behind it. 1) My instructor told me that if you are just carring a gun and no cuffs then you are just looking to kill someone. When I carry, I have flex cuffs on me. 2) As an off duty officer my object is to stop and secure not get into a firefight. 3) As a father it is for getting my family out of a hostile area safely. 4) When you point something at someone and your gun goes BANG, that should buy you time to find good cover and wait for the cops. 5) It is better to be a good witness than another dead body. Be carefull and make good decisions. I carry a PPK/S and I love it. cshoff on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-653 Wed, 20 Apr 2011 21:35:35 +0000 cshoff 653@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <blockquote>Alvin wrote: I carry both a Walther PK380 and a Beretta 9000s .40 and I personally feel that both handguns are well with in their means as personal protection. I have not heard one person shot with a .380 complain that it was a inadaquate cartridge! German Politzie used .380 caliber for many, many years and they never had a problem with that cartridge. When I carry my PK380, I have no doubts that if I am accousted, that .380 round will penetrate where I aim *sternum*. I have heard people complain that a .380 round will not penetrate more than 8 inches...my God....I dont know of too many people that have more than 8 inches of chest before their hearts, if they do, they have part gorilla in them!</blockquote> Your scenario relies on the assumption that you will, A) have an unobstructed, front-on shot to the heart, and B) your projectile will hit precisely where you intend. Unfortunately, it rarely works out that way in a real lethal force encounter. More often than not, the bullet encounters a hand, a arm, clothing of some variety, or the adversary is at a less than optimal angle in relation to the direction of fire and the bullet must first pass through an upper arm or perhaps a shoulder blade, before it can make it to the high center chest area an reach the vital organs we are trying to disrupt. Any of those factors can have a dramatic effect on the way the projectile behaves. In short, we certainly can't count on ideal conditions being present when the moment of truth arrives. Personally, I'd much rather choose a more powerful cartridge that will more reliably provide me with adequate penetration ahead of time, than to find myself wishing I would have once the SHTF. BTW - Welcome to PDN, Alvin. Good to have you here. Alvin on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-648 Sun, 17 Apr 2011 22:17:35 +0000 Alvin 648@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I carry both a Walther PK380 and a Beretta 9000s .40 and I personally feel that both handguns are well with in their means as personal protection. I have not heard one person shot with a .380 complain that it was a inadaquate cartridge! German Politzie used .380 caliber for many, many years and they never had a problem with that cartridge. When I carry my PK380, I have no doubts that if I am accousted, that .380 round will penetrate where I aim *sternum*. I have heard people complain that a .380 round will not penetrate more than 8 inches...my God....I dont know of too many people that have more than 8 inches of chest before their hearts, if they do, they have part gorilla in them! pioneer461 on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-605 Wed, 02 Feb 2011 12:21:05 +0000 pioneer461 605@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I'm of the school which believes the minimum pistol caliber for effective self defense is .38 spl +P, with self defense ammo. I have a J-frame backup that I carry at work, loaded with Speer Gold Dot, 135 gr. Short Barrel ammo. My carry gun for work is an issued .40 caliber, and my personal carry arms are either .40 or .45 acp. A .380 isn't an option for me. Having said all of that, I own what is perhaps the, if not one of the smallest micro-guns. I have an NAA mini-revolver, with .22 lr & .22 magnum cylinders. Do I carry it for self defense? NO. I own it and often shoot it because it is fun. Accuracy is not one of the little revolver's strong points, but I've gotten pretty fair groups at about 10 yards by point shooting. Would I ever try competition or qualification with it? Fuggitaboudit. medbear on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-517 Tue, 07 Dec 2010 05:46:12 +0000 medbear 517@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I alternate between my snubbie colt .38 (my Pharmacy pocket gun) and my Kimber .45. I only like shooting the Colt if I wear gloves. The Kimber is fun. Having said that, I picked up a "mousegun" .45 Taurus made of polymers and other recycled pop-bottle stuff. I should have shot it first because it is not comfortable. I sort of dread training with it. I thing I am gonna choose to hump a little more mass and carry something I am trained on. In defense of the Taurus, it is quite accurate and it operated fine. But the next day I had trouble typing on the Pharmacy Computers because my wrist ached. Maybe I am a fool, but I want to get a RUGER LCR in .357 for the lightness in my pocket but I don't know how bad it will be for training. WayneRiddle on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-516 Sun, 28 Nov 2010 09:03:45 +0000 WayneRiddle 516@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ While on this subject, andyone try out the new S&W Bodyguard handguns in 38 +p or .380? Glockster23 on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-497 Wed, 10 Nov 2010 04:43:01 +0000 Glockster23 497@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ My wife currently is carrying a Kahr CW-9, mine is either a Glock 27 or 23. The wife's insistance on the Kahr, helped prove the point I having been trying to make to her. Smaller, lighter pistols are a "bear" to shoot. Throw in, the DA only trigger and you have to completely re-learn how to shoot that weapon. My 27 is about as small as I want to get, even though I want a Rorbough "real bad". yyao12345 on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-478 Fri, 29 Oct 2010 21:23:58 +0000 yyao12345 478@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Thank you for the information,<a href="http://www.2008jersey.com"> ravens football jerseys </a> let me better understand here, gave me a lot of help. Snowman on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-462 Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:14:53 +0000 Snowman 462@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I purchased a Taurus PT709 Slim about six months ago. I really like it. That being said, I am a Glock man, and carry one daily backed up with a J-Frame sbubby or Taurus Model 85UL. I have on more than one occaision carried the PT709 Slim as my primary in an IWB holster with the Taurus TCP in my left front pocket. Both Taurus pistols are totally reliable and have the best triggers in the sub-compact group. I have a Khar 9mm and I don't like it nearly as much as I like the Taurus pistols. The little TCP even has the advantage of a frame-mounted slide release....my Kel Tec and my Ruger LCP are not so-equipped. Still...I prefer a full sized fighting handgun for SD. ke4sky on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-416 Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:23:16 +0000 ke4sky 416@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Fairbairn and Sykes taught Applegate to fire rapid double- and triple-taps they described as "bursts" in order to make up for the low power of typical FMJ pistol bullets. This was the method taught to OSS operatives at Camp Ritchey, MD during WWII as well as during the cold war era to CIA clandestine services personnel at "the farm." ke4sky on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-414 Thu, 23 Sep 2010 07:19:34 +0000 ke4sky 414@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Many years ago I tested a variety of .32 ACP and .380 autopistols to determine which of the ones then currently available were the most natural pointers using Applegate technique, and were most reliable. The Colt M1903 Model M pocket model, Type II without the magazine safety was widely issued during WWII and into the Vietnam era. It was normally carried with its chamber empty, hammer cocked and safety off with loaded magazine inserted, racking the slide with the weak hand concurrent with the draw stroke. This method originated with the Hong Kong police, but is widely attributed to the Israeli's who learned it from the British. Testing under car-jacking and kidnap scenarios determined that a pocket pistol must be capable of safe carry with its chamber loaded, and be capable of immediate fire by means of the trigger stroke only, without having to manipulate a mechanical safety lever. German police experience greatly influenced training and doctrine with the pocket pistol. If a pistol has to be fired through the pocket it is best to do so holding it inverted and slightly raised so that ejected cases fall down into the pocket away from the gun, reducing the risk of jams. DA revolvers with a fully shrouded or enclosed hammer are best for firing through the pocket, as any exposed hammer may snag in lining. Best choices for pocket pistols available pre-1970 for this purpose were the Walther PP and Mauser HSc. Of current offerings the Beretta Tomcat INOX in my opinion is more reliable, has a better grip, is a more natural pointer and is more accurate than the Ken-Tec. Its double-action trigger also permits a repeat strike on a misfired primer by repeating the trigger stroke, whereas the Ruger LCP requires the slide be racked to eject the misfired round and to chamber another one. The Beretta system works better for people previously schooled in DA revolvers whose first impulse is to simply restroke the trigger, whereas the Ruger system is suitable only for trained and practiced in single-action autopistols such as the M1911, and whose whose first impulse upon a misfire is Tap-Rack-Bang! If combat isn’t your job, but you have other essential, and dangerous tasks to perform, the purpose of a gun carried by a clandestine operator was to neutralize immediate threats from contact to 20 feet to facilitate escape to complete the mission. In the words of the late Harry Archer, “If you stand and fight you’ll never live to shoot them all.” The goal was rapidity of fire, accurate, multiple hits at close range, maximum control, with minimum muzzle flash and recoil, discreet profile and minimum weight and cube of “the package.” While a .32 ACP is never first choice as a defense gun, it is better to have any gun than none, if you might be tempted NOT to carry and leave a larger gun at home and thus take your chances. Whenever using a marginal caliber, shot placement, reliability and penetration are most important. In the .32 ACP stick to European hardball, such as RWS, Sellier & Bellot, Privi Partisan or Fiocchi, which actually does give 900+ f.p.s. in chronograph tests, whereas US makes tested seldom get 850 and use a lighter 71-gr. vs. 73 grain bullet. No hollowpoint ammunition currently available in .32 ACP produces reliable expansion in barrels as short as 2.5 inches. When fired from barrels longer than 3 inches which do permit expansion, penetration is inadequate. Some pistols steadfastly refuse to feed hollowpoints and the lighter weight bullets in some popular ammunition have insufficient recoil impulse to reliably cycle older WWII era Euro pistols balanced for 73-grain hardball. We are not talking "one shot stops" here and do not make comparisions on a round-for-round basis. For a pocket gun to have any effectiveness the user must practice "shoot and scoot" to produce multiple hits quickly. Think of a .32 ACP as firing a single round of buckshot from a sawed off shotgun in which 8 pellets are fired serially in about 2-2.5 seconds, versus instantly. parabarbarian on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-373 Mon, 23 Aug 2010 11:31:08 +0000 parabarbarian 373@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Given current technology I would, personally, never carry anything less than a 38 spl for self defense. About the only way I can see to improve the "mouse gun" cartridges listed with current technology is to use them to deliver a potent toxin. Ideally, for self defense, the payload would be quick to paralyze but slow to kill thereby enabling stopping an attacker even with marginal penetration but still allowing time for EMT or ER personnel to administer the antidote. However, right now such a bullet would probably be illegal as hell so I'll stick to the 38 spl as my working minimum. kyglockman on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-315 Fri, 23 Jul 2010 02:11:55 +0000 kyglockman 315@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ hey everybody, i just joined and its great to be here. but wanted to chime in on this topic! as my user name implies, i am a huge glock fan! my main carry piece is a glock 27 .40, and if i need a bigger one i carry a 23 .40! but there is just some times i cant carry one of them so in those times i have carried a kel tec p3at for years! i can shoot the p3at almost as good as i can my bigger ones it is accurate and good shooting the only down fall is the small size is harder to shoot well even my glock 27 i can get my whole hand around with a grip extension but even without the extension i shoot it a little better because it is just bigger and more gun in my hand! no the 380 does not have as much knock down power as a 9 or .40 but those are still handguns as well. i wish i could carry around a rifle strapped to my back but it would attract to much attention and be harder to get in to action, lol... but anyway i have shot my little gun for years and am pretty dern good with it! but around the house it is a tool to get to a better tool and as a only carry gun on the street i believe with other things it will be enough to get me home safe if i ever need it!! i made the decision a little bit back to really get a light wait thin easily carried gun but in 9mm because i to believe in a handgun anyway the bigger the caliber the better! but after looking at just about every little 9mm on the market i finally chose one!! and dont get the wrong i love my glock 27 and thought about getting a glock 26 for cheaper ammo and less recoil but it is still the same thickness as my 27 and right on the same wait! so what would i be really doing if i am not changing the size why shoot the lesser bullet! i wanted something thin and very light! i looked at everything from the khars to the new taurus' and so on! i did noti like the price of the pm9 from khar, at $650 i can do without it! and the others i looked at were simply to heavy i wanted as light as i could in a 9mm! so i got the kel tec pf9 its younger brother has protected me for years. so why not give it a try! at less then an inch thick and less then a pound fully loaded it is a joy to carry and the respect i have for kel tec's made my decision! but it is still a little gun and wit hmuch practice and about a thousand rounds later i can shoot it just a good as my glock 27!! so wit henough practice and determination i believe anybody can learn to shoot what they want to carry! yes i do not want to leave the house without one of my glock .40s but in reality ist is not always possible! if yo uwant t ocarry a little gun just remember it is a little gun and that just means you have to be that much better with it! because i dont care how little the bullet is i dont know anybody that wants to be shot with it! and if you do your part and hit the right spot it will do its job to the best of its ability! guys sorry so long winded and thanks for letting me be apart of yalls forum! stay safe & shoot straight rsharrer on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-312 Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:28:49 +0000 rsharrer 312@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ <blockquote>ZenGunFighter wrote: Pretty much anyone can conceal a Kahr PM9. There really isn't any reason to go smaller in size than that. The Kahr is small and light enough to conceal, but large enough with good sights and usable trigger so that it can actually be used in a fight. Carrying a firearm is all about compromises and balances. Anything smaller than the Kahr PM9 or lightweight J frame is going too far the wrong way as far a 'balancing' carry-ability vs. fight-ability</blockquote> Zen I have to agree, I have a Kahr PM9 and I carry it from time to time, it is light weight 7 shot 9mm. I like to call it my dress weapon. I carry my glock .40cal. most of the time but there are just times that you can not carry a gun that big, in those times I carry my Kahr. Ryan ZenGunFighter on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-256 Sun, 30 May 2010 16:25:09 +0000 ZenGunFighter 256@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Pretty much anyone can conceal a Kahr PM9. There really isn't any reason to go smaller in size than that. The Kahr is small and light enough to conceal, but large enough with good sights and usable trigger so that it can actually be used in a fight. Carrying a firearm is all about compromises and balances. Anything smaller than the Kahr PM9 or lightweight J frame is going too far the wrong way as far a 'balancing' carry-ability vs. fight-ability brianko on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-254 Sun, 30 May 2010 14:21:51 +0000 brianko 254@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I've been carrying a Kahr PM9 and/or CW9 for over a year now. If it weren't for these two single-stack 9mm, I probably wouldn't be carrying on a regular basis: Being a rather small guy, carrying around my Sig 229 or XD-9, is simply out of the question. Further up-post, someone commented on the idea that a beneficial side-effect for sub-compacts is the possibility that those who normally wouldn't carrry because of the wardrobe modifications required for larger handguns might now be enticed to carry with a sub-compact. To me, that's the name of the game: We can argue about shooting characterisitcs all day long, but in the end, concealed carry isn't effective unless you're carrying. Since studies have shown that most CHL interactions occur at close range, I question whether some of these discussions are anything more than academic exercises. At an rate, I carry every day now, everywhere I go (except school...for some strange reason, our state legislature puts a smaller value on the lives of our children than the lives of their parents). I alternate the Kahrs, IWB at about 3 o'clock, and can continue wearing the same clothes I already own. cshoff on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-149 Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:03:29 +0000 cshoff 149@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Demo - You are talking about +P ammo now. I've yet to see anything from Kel-Tec, Ruger, Bersa, or even SIG that approves the use of .380 +P ammunition in their firearms. In fact, the SIG P238 operators manual specifically states: <blockquote>....."The proper caliber is permanently engraved on your firearm; never attempt to use ammunition of any other caliber.".....</blockquote> If the barrel of your gun only has ".380 ACP" stamped in it, it would appear as though the use of +P ammunition would not be approved. Mike - You are pointing out attributes that some of us have already mentioned here. There is no doubt that if ultimate concealment is your requirement, it's hard to beat the flat, compact design of some of these pocket pistols. I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that point. However, that same attribute also changes the dynamics of the training one must utilize in order to "run the gun" efficiently. As has already been pointed out, it takes more dexterity to properly manipulate these smaller pistols than it does a larger gun. The other thing I believe is worth mentioning here is the tendency for these small guns to have feed and extraction issues. Even the <a href="http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2074&cid=4">RECENT ARTICLE</a> in American Rifleman where range tests on 9 different .380 pocket guns were performed, including the SIG P238, is quoted as saying: <blockquote>....."I am concerned about the number of cycling malfunctions, most commonly failures to feed and chamber. With one exception, every gun experienced these problems....."</blockquote> At the very least, this highlights the importance of a thorough and complete break-in period to get these little guns to an acceptable level of functional reliability; something I doubt most owners really do. In my opinion, these little guns are a solution to a unique problem. They are not, however, a replacement for a larger, more powerful, and more reliable handgun in environments where the larger handgun can be carried. MikeM on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms/page/2#post-148 Tue, 23 Feb 2010 05:23:54 +0000 MikeM 148@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Demo does make a very good point here guys. The whole concept behind a sub-compact gun is that it is small enough and light enough to carry with you at ALL times. Lets not forget the first rule of any gunfight - Have a Gun! Is the .380ACP round ever going to match a .45ACP? No. But then again we are not likely to see a manageable .45ACP thats the same size as the new generation of pocket pistols. Even a gun such as the Kahr PM40 offers a very small frame in a larger caliber but the recoil is pretty stiff. So for those people who can't afford to carry a gun the size that a larger caliber gun some of these .380ACP subcompact semi-auto's fit the bill very well. For those who argue that the .380 ins't manageable in such a small sized frame (often citing the polymer LCP or Kel-tec), you likely have not shot a gun such as the Sig P238. I can tell you from direct experience (owning 2 of them) that the recoil of a P238 is very manageable (almost negligible). It is not hard at all to get consistent combat accurate shots quickly on target using this particular handgun. Understand that Im not saying that the P238 is a perfect gun without flaws (it is an SAO trigger with a manual safety for example). I'm just stating the fact that there are very small .380ACP pistols out there that are controllable and accurate and fill a very useful place in the concealed carry and personal defense market. If you are interested in reading more about the P238, there are many posts about its trials, tribulations, and successes as well as a product review at <a href="http://www.armstalk.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.armstalk.com</a>. I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss the .380ACP cartridge. The sheer number of manufacturers making these guns and the consistent shortage of .380ACP ammo in the market are indicators that many people are fond of them. Demo on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms#post-147 Tue, 23 Feb 2010 02:35:08 +0000 Demo 147@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Thank you for the reply cshoff. I will agree that a Kel Tec or something of that size is not exactly the most accurate pistol. That being said most people who choose to carry a high percentage of the time simply can't have their larger frame pistols on them at work. Even a Kel Tec in the pocket is much better than a 45. in the safe at home. Personaly I carry (as I mentioned) a P238. Unless your a grizzly, in which case I need to take down my posts, it'll fit your hand just fine and the sights are just as big as the P220 sights. You've pulled out the dynamic, critical, action packed adventure performance line so allow me to quote directly from Buffalo Bore' site then I'll be outta here. "This 380 Auto+P ammo will better all American made 380 Auto ammo by 150 fps to 200 fps in all bullet weights we make. This is a serious improvement in this typically anemic cartridge. This 380 auto+P ammo is more powerful than the typical 38SPL ammo made by most American ammo makers and you'll get 7 shots of it in a small/flat/light weight 380 versus 5 shots out of a bulkier 38 SPL J frame revolver. Additionally, with the 380 you'll get much faster reloads and the little magazines are flatter than a speed-loader used for a J frame." cshoff on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms#post-146 Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:02:21 +0000 cshoff 146@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ Demo - I won't pretend to speak for Grant, but the bottom line is that the Maximum Acceptable Pressure for a .380 ACP cartridge is about 21,500 psi. That is it's limiting factor. You can do all you want with bullet design and gun design, but you can't safely exceed that pressure. There is no big "mystery" as to why it will never perform as well as it's larger, more powerful counterparts. As to the accuracy of the cartridge, well, it's a fact that most of us will never be able to use all of the inherent accuracy in any gun/ammunition combination more than a small percentage of the time. Add to that the stress and chaos of a dynamic critical incident, and we're lucky to hit center mass when it counts. Trying to perform under those conditions with a gun that has a very high power to weight ratio, and fits our shooting hand marginally at best, it's pretty easy to see just how illusive the reality of actual accuracy really can be. Demo on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms#post-145 Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:50:37 +0000 Demo 145@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I joined this forum to respond to the dinasour hatred of the .380ACP. Particulary due to Mr. Grants comments. Today's technology provides .380ACP rounds that penetrate 22" (Buffalo Bore). Put that round in a Sig Sauer P238 "pocket pistol" and you've got serious capability 100% of the time. Grant's generalized comments regarding .380 pistols accuracy or shootability showcase a bias opinion. I'd carry a Barret 50 BMG if I could; however my P238 .380ACP is with me all day everyday. Looking for range results? Visit <a href="http://www.armstalk.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.armstalk.com</a> I've posted plenty of pics. I own, carry, and shoot 45ACP Sigs as well; however I'm here to tell you I'm just as accurate and "dynamic" with the Sig P238 as I am with my P220. GrantCunningham on "Sub-Compact Small Caliber Firearms" http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/topic/sub-compact-small-caliber-firearms#post-76 Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:05:40 +0000 GrantCunningham 76@http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/forum/ I think you've nailed it. The issue isn't the lack of effectiveness; it's that their small size and design makes them difficult to use to their potential. The little .32 caliber guns - the Kel-Tecs, Seecamps, and the like - aren't too bad to control. They can be hard to hit anything with, however. The .380 versions are another matter entirely. They're still difficult to shoot well, but now they're even difficult to hang onto! General rule of thumb: the smaller the gun relative to the caliber, the more you need to practice. -=[ Grant ]=-