Personal Defense Network Forum » Training

Dry fire + laser = training scar?

(8 posts)
  1. joemerchant24

    joemerchant24

    Junior Member
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 6

    I am seriously looking at one of the LaserLyte training modules. I have two worries about it.

    1) Will this create a training scar of coming up off the sights in order to see the 100m/s laser dot? I understand distance will dictate sights vs physiological aiming, but I worry this practice will hardwire me to look at the target immediately after every shot regardless of distance.

    2) This is a dry fire concern in general. When I practice dry, what's the best way to handle a SA or striker fired semi-auto? Should I fire one, pause, cycle? Or shot one, cycle, shot two.

    I worry immediately cycling a semi will return at a bad time and I'll shoot, rack out a good round, shoot, rack out a good round.

    If I pause to break that cycle, I worry about ingraining one shot then evaluate.

    I know there's no perfect answer, but best practices would be appreciated

    # Posted 1 year ago
  2. GrantCunningham

    GrantCunningham

    Senior Member
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 63

    1) Will this create a training scar of coming up off the sights in order to see the 100m/s laser dot? I understand distance will dictate sights vs physiological aiming, but I worry this practice will hardwire me to look at the target immediately after every shot regardless of distance.

    At typical defensive distances, you should be focused on the target anyhow. The body's natural reaction is to focus on the threat, and training counter to that reaction is not productive. If you use the LT-1 at a typical defensive distance, it will actually reinforce that habit - a good thing, in my opinion. Focus on the "threat", bring the gun into and parallel with your line of sight, and see where the laser dot is relative to where you were focused.

    Save the shooting with sights for live fire on the range, and then only at distances/target sizes where you need them.

    2) This is a dry fire concern in general. When I practice dry, what's the best way to handle a SA or striker fired semi-auto? Should I fire one, pause, cycle? Or shot one, cycle, shot two.

    I recommend that after each "shot" that you do the correct thing when confronted with a failure to fire: tap-rack. Press the trigger, get the no fire indication, come into high ready, tap-rack. Extend and "shoot" again, repeat the process. You're getting a malfunction response rep with each failure to fire. Think of it as a high-tech dummy round drill that you can do in your basement.

    It should be pointed out that any dry fire routine should be used sparingly, as a diagnostic aid and not as a substitute for live fire. It's a great way to verify that you're not steering the gun at the instant of ignition, but understand that without the recoil and requisite control of a live round you're not closing the loop of the exercise.

    I teach my students that a half-dozen, perhaps a dozen max, repetitions per dry fire session is plenty. If your first few "shots" show that your trigger control is fine - in other words, the laser dot is where you expect it to be - then you can finish the session then and there. There's no benefit, in my opinion, for doing any dry fire beyond the point that you've verified the physical skill.

    -=[ Grant ]=-

    Gunsmith, Trainer, Writer
    Combat Focus Shooting (tm) Instructor
    -
    http://www.grantcunningham.com
    # Posted 1 year ago
  3. CharlesRives

    CharlesRives

    Member
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 18

    Crimson Trace occasionally gives away copies of a DVD they made with several firearms instructors called "The Art of Survival." It's free. It's partly advertisement and partly instructional. And, it has some information about training with a Laser. They specifically do some pretty cool dry-fire stuff with it.

    They've also posted the content on YouTube.

    # Posted 1 year ago
  • RobPincus

    Rob Pincus

    Managing Editor
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 59

    Grant pretty much said exactly what I was going to.

    Laser Training (and Dry fire for that matter) are not preferable.

    Can you "find the good" in them?? Yes, of course. But that doesn't make it a good idea in general.

    You do run the risk of the training scars and I REALLY don't think you should be training the actual shooting part of the puzzle in regard to defensive shooting with them. Live Fire. Defensive Shootings are likely to be multiple shot strings and you need to work with recoil in order to develop consistency in firing multiple shot strings well. There is no recoil during dry fire / laser training, so you're simply NOT training for proper multiple shot strings. If you do insist on using dry fire/laser to evaluate marksmanship, use a target that reacts to or stores a memory of hits, that you don't have to look. OR use a training partner to "call" your shots. Lastly, you can use a video camera on the target and play back you shots.

    Keep "Stimulus-Response" in mind in regard to the malfunction drill. EVERYTIME you get a CLICK, you should be doing a tap-rack. (note the period)

    -Rob

    # Posted 1 year ago
  • joemerchant24

    joemerchant24

    Junior Member
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 6

    Thanks all.

    I knew there was no perfect answer and that dry fire -> live fire is like Gran Turismo 4 -> Le Mans.

    I currently use the CT laser on my j-frame for a few dry trigger control drills, but the LaserLyte module looked like an interesting tool for dry fire on moving targets (paster on a swinging heavy bag).

    Grant had your answer, Rob? Wonder who he learned all that from?

    Sidebar: I don't suppose Grant or Rob are coming out to the Shooting Industry Masters this month?

    # Posted 1 year ago
  • RobPincus

    Rob Pincus

    Managing Editor
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 59

    I won't be out there, Joe... It's been a long time since I was into the competition stuff.

    Glad these thoughts have helped. I've had CT on my J-frame for long time, just started experimenting with the SML from LaserLyte.

    -Rob

    # Posted 1 year ago
  • GrantCunningham

    GrantCunningham

    Senior Member
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 63

    Grant had your answer, Rob? Wonder who he learned all that from?

    Rob just recognizes when it's futile to argue against genius! ;)

    Seriously, my general feelings with regard to dry fire had crystallized before I'd met Rob. In fact, one of the reasons I looked harder at what he was doing with his programs was because he was the only trainer I'd found who espoused the same general opinions of certain topics - one of them being dry firing.

    However, he gets the credit for inspiring me to say "the emperor has no clothes" in public without flinching.

    Sidebar: I don't suppose Grant or Rob are coming out to the Shooting Industry Masters this month?

    No. (Actually, I'd never heard of it until now!)

    I haven't shot a match since 2001. Though I like certain shooting sports (those that don't pretend to be "practical" or "realistic") I just don't have the time to devote to preparation and practice. If I were to get back into competition, it would probably be something like sporting clays - for me, it's the biggest challenge because I suck at shooting birds!

    -=[ Grant ]=-

    Gunsmith, Trainer, Writer
    Combat Focus Shooting (tm) Instructor
    -
    http://www.grantcunningham.com
    # Posted 1 year ago
  • joemerchant24

    joemerchant24

    Junior Member
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 6

    Despite the name, it's a lot less of a competition and more of a shooting industry gathering.

    Thanks, gents.

    # Posted 1 year ago

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