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Engaging multiple threats...

(8 posts)
  1. cshoff

    cshoff

    Senior Member
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 56

    I think it's safe to say that most of us have seen this scenario at one time or another during our training; shooter standing at the firing line, 2 targets downrange at a close distance from the shooter (typically around 15 feet) and at a specified distance from each other (typically less than 8 feet), both of them presumed threats. On the start command, the shooter must access his/her weapon, present his/her weapon, and then engage both threats within a specified time period.

    In the simplistic scenario above, and for the purposes of this thread, we are assuming that both threats are equal threats and pose an equal amount of danger to us.

    In my training, I have always trained to engage each target with one shot in this situation, then re-assess each threat and continue engaging them in order of tactical importance until they are no longer a threat. The thought process has always been that, at such close distances, these two attackers simply won't allow you the time to perform a double tap on each of them. In other words, by the time you get your first double tap off, the attacker that you haven't addressed yet may well be on top of you. At such close ranges, it seems to me that we have a higher tactical probability of getting one well-placed shot on each attacker in such a short time frame and under such stressful conditions, than we would in getting a double-tap into each target under the same pressures of time and stress. In fact, I believe that a quick demonstration of the Tueller drill highlights the very brief reactionary gap that really exists in such a situation.

    The thing is, I have seen a number of training programs, even some for law enforcement, that teach the shooter to engage each threat with a double-tap, then re-assess. This assumes that the shooter will actually have enough time to do this during a real, multiple-threat, life threatening encounter. It also seems as though some of the competitive shooting circles, most notably the IDPA (simply because that is the one I am most familiar with), emphasize the double-tap in almost all of the scenarios they utilize that address multiple threats at close distances.

    My question here is most specifically directed at Rob and Grant, but certainly to anyone else who has knowledge in this area. What do you suggest is the best way to address a threat situation like the one I described above? I realize that there could be any number of variables involved in a real encounter, but given the simple scenario above, how do you teach your students to deal with the situation? Do you believe engaging each threat with one well-placed shot to begin with places the shooter in a more advantageous position than it would if the shooter attempted a double tap on each threat, or do you believe a double tap into each threat at such short range is a better way to go?

    I would appreciate any input you could provide as I certainly respect your opinions on these subjects guys. Thank you in advance.

    Chris S.

    NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
    NRA Certified RSO
    Missouri CCW Instructor
    # Posted 5 months ago
  2. DonWorsham

    DonWorsham

    Junior Member
    Joined: Feb '10
    Posts: 7

    I would shoot one threat multiple times while creating distance between me and the other threat then shooting that threat multiple times. Understanding that in the scenairo presented you will likely be shot-stabbed-injured to some degree perhaps fatally.

    # Posted 5 months ago
  3. reno92

    reno92

    Member
    Joined: Feb '10
    Posts: 14

    good points, I have thought about that too. I would like to see Rob,and Grants take on it also.

    # Posted 5 months ago
  4. CharlesRives

    CharlesRives

    Member
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 17

    I know from experience that once your focus lands upon a particular threat, it's extremely difficult to break the tunnel vision and even think about any other potential threats than the first one that fills your attention. Shifting focus to deliver a good hit on several targets before coming back to the first will require a pretty impressive demonstration of sangfroid . . . even with a lot of practice and even when that might be the best course of action.

    # Posted 5 months ago
  5. GrantCunningham

    GrantCunningham

    Member
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 43

    I dislike this particular exercise, even though it's an extremely popular one.

    At issue is the fact the targets aren't ambulatory, let alone aggressive, let alone preemptive. This is all aside from the lack of context - what are their weapons, what is the environment, what are we aware of, what are the assailant's relative skill/motivation, etc.

    This is true with a single target, of course, but the objective of the activity changes with the target quantity: a single target can simply be a skill-building drill, but two or more is invariably a defensive exercise. It is my emerging conviction that defensive exercises simply can't be run with static targets, if one actually wants to learn anything of value.

    While force-on-force drills aren't the "be all, end all" to defensive training, for things like this they're incredibly useful. Running against multiple opponents (of roughly equal ability and motivation) you discover, very quickly, that doing anything other than moving is suicide. Your only real choice is which one of them goes with you.

    If you've got room to maneuver, a strong flanking move to put one of them between you and the other - for even the briefest time - gives you only one threat to address for that moment, at which point you give him your undivided attention. The other will be along shortly.

    If you don't have room, things are considerably less festive. At that point you have a decision to make: which one to take out first, and just how? As to the former, you'll have to decide that at the time. As for the latter, I've come to the opinion that a head shot is your best option. Yes, I know it's more difficult than a COM hit, but it isn't nearly as difficult as people make it out to be.

    (Again, a quick FOF drill will show what you need to know, but I won't spoil the surprise. Yes, there is one, but it takes a non-dogmatic instructor to recognize it.)

    The reasoning is simple: you need the maximum effect possible with your first shot. We're not specifically aiming for a CNS disruption (we'll take it if it happens), but the fact is that a shot anywhere in the face is likely to cause the threat to stop looking at you, at least long enough to deal with his buddy.

    Once that's done, MOVE as much as fast as you can, address the other threat, keep moving as you come back to the first guy.

    Worst case scenario is that you hit him in the forehead, the copious blood obscuring his vision, but he recovers in a couple of seconds to come back at you. That still gives you time enough to get in solid hits on his accomplice, leaving you free to return to him as needed. Your movement will have forced him to take a little more time to reacquire his target, which (hopefully) he'll find difficult to do after sustaining a serious head wound.

    Remember the balance of speed and precision? That's why we train.

    (Of course, I'm always willing to learn a better way!)

    -=[ Grant ]=-

    -=[ Grant ]=-
    -
    Gunsmith, Trainer, Writer
    Combat Focus Shooting (tm) Instructor
    -
    http://www.grantcunningham.com
    # Posted 5 months ago
  6. cshoff

    cshoff

    Senior Member
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 56

    Thanks for all of the input thus far, guys. A lot of good information here.

    Grant - Yes, I agree that this particular exercise comes up short, to say the least. It forces the shooter to make unrealistic assumptions about the supposed threats that will likely never materialize in the real world. Based off of official reports I have read, and video I have seen of actual encounters that involved multiple assailants, the evidence supports the notion that once a gun is presented, and especially after it is fired, nobody is stationary anymore. Human beings have an innate urge to physically react to the prospect of being shot.

    Distance is always a good thing. When we can create distance between us and an attacker, we also create more reactionary time to assess, formulate, and ultimately confront said threat. I'm a firm believer in what Rob refers to as "movement with purpose" in a dynamic critical incident; our movements should be in such a manner that they provide us with a tactical advantage, even if it is an advantage we will only have for a very brief time. The flanking move that Grant mentioned above is one example of the kind of movement that may be possible.

    I understand the limitations that are inherent on some shooting ranges in that it simply may not be safe for them to allow such movement during multi-target scenarios. Safety is always the first concern on ANY range. But at the same time, I can only envision a couple of circumstances where two attackers may present themselves in the manner that the original training exercise tries to demonstrate, and in neither case can I imagine the situation not dynamically changing in very short order.

    It may be time for this training exercise to be re-evaluated and brought into the real world. Unfortunately, it is a part of any number of training programs as well as numerous competitive shooting scenarios.

    Chris S.

    NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
    NRA Certified RSO
    Missouri CCW Instructor
    # Posted 5 months ago
  7. RobPincus

    RobPincus

    Managing Editor
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 24

    This was actually just covered on the past week's episode of The Best Defense on Outdoor Channel. As Charles mentioned, the focus on a lethal threat is very real and very intense. Our brains are hardwired to focus us on those threats. In true defensive situations, we entirely unlikely to be aware of more than one threat at a time, let alone be capable of keeping track of them and swinging our guns to and fro (as we see demonstrated to death on you tube against paper and steel). In the CFS course we go into great detail about the psychology and physiology of why choreographing responses to multiple targets is foolish.

    We train to engage each threat separately as you become aware of them. This means training repetitively to bring your gun back to the High Compressed Ready and assessing your environment immediately after you recognize that your threat has been dealt with. I believe this is the best way to ensure that you will pick up (and efficiently engage) subsequent threats as quickly as possible.

    Real multiple threats are not plate racks.

    El Presidente is Irrelevente when it comes to real world preparation. I mentioned this on the TV show earlier this week and immediately got a "good job" email from gunwriter Dave Spaulding who shared a conversation he had with Jeff Cooper who had lamented the fact that the exercise had become a dominant "multiple threat" drill.

    -RJP

    # Posted 5 months ago
  8. ZenGunFighter

    ZenGunFighter

    Member
    Joined: May '10
    Posts: 15

    In a scenario like this, you need to do multiple things simultaneously.
    Movement is the most important one.
    I'd be moving so that one BG is in between the other. If I'm lucky, the BG in the back will shoot his partner for me.
    I'm big on brain shots. If it turns into a face shot instead, it's still going to be very distracting for the BG.
    Gun running skills need to be drilled to the point of you're being 'unconciously competent' so your mind is free to think of tactical issues.

    Eastern thought meets Western GunFighting
    # Posted 2 months ago

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