For training puposes, and new shooters, what type of target works the best, The b27 type for me anyways is hard to get good accuracy with, due to not having a definite aim point, but on the other side of the coin is, is having a specific aim point counter productive. Any thoughts?
Personal Defense Network Forum » Training
Favorite target styles
(12 posts)-
# Posted 1 year ago
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Just my opinion, Reno, but I think it all depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you are trying to develop solid, fundamental marksmanship skills, then there is nothing at all wrong with using a standard, small-bore pistol or rifle target that provides you with a definite bulls-eye to align your sights with. I'd guess that most all of us honed our marksmanship skills on those targets at some point in our lives.
If you are looking at defensive firearms training, then I believe the more life-like the target, the better. Keep in mind that assailants just don't walk around with a bulls-eye painted on their chest. Learning to recognize those high center chest shots from various angles, and then training to actually hit them, is a critical aspect of defensive shooting.
Might I recommend that you take a look at this video featuring Rob Pincus as he explains the finer points of combat accuracy.
Chris S.
NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
NRA Certified RSO
Missouri CCW Instructor# Posted 1 year ago -
I do like the targets Rob uses in that video. they dont look as politicly incorrect, for shared ranges. some people get offended to easy. Also from a instructors stand point it looks like it would give immediate feed back, as opposed to the all black B27. For novices interested in self defense shooting,would you go to these right away? or try to spend time on ones with a more defined aim point? I have a cardboard sheet with 2 inch cutouts,that I overlay over cardboard, and paint, giving me 5-6 different aiming points. I like them for accuracy testing. I generally use antagonist targets, or the dots, but for new shooters, dont want to see them get discouraged,but not develop the hit the target any where is okay, mindset either. so far it has started out with paper plates and large target dot, for beginers.
# Posted 1 year ago -
I think the Bianchi D1 (or similar) is a good target to start out with in basic defensive shooting drills. It helps shooters get the idea of the traditional, round bulls-eye target out or their minds, while still providing a familiar aiming point on a "center of mass" shaped target. They also are bright enough that they provide good feedback to the shooter and to the instructor.
Not sure what variety the targets are that Rob is using in the video, but they look like they could be effective. Sounds to me, Reno, like you've already got some good ideas for addressing the shortcomings of traditional targets, as you see them.
Chris S.
NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
NRA Certified RSO
Missouri CCW Instructor# Posted 1 year ago -
Hey guys... Good Stuff.
Reno,
Starting a student off thinking that they need a "defined aiming point" is counter productive. Instead of overcomplicating the issues of deviation control at the beginning of a student's development, we should be making it as simple as possible. The SEB Target gives us a realistic sized "high center chest" box for the student to focus on... any hit in the box is good to go. You could argue that this is even more than they need, but it does give us an area to define as "combat accurate" or not, which helps the training model after the first few minutes.
The B27 and its ilk all create an overemphasis on marksmanship and extreme precision by design. Behaviorally, it is very hard for a student to not WANT to hit the X-ring... but the X-ring is smaller than the area we are generally shooting for in a defensive encounter (and, usually too low on the body...).
-RJP
# Posted 1 year ago -
For teaching purposes - both new shooters and those needing remedial training - I've found the need to do two things simultaneously. First is to teach proper trigger control, and second to teach proper sight alignment (for those times when they need the precision of using their sights.) The issue with most targets is that they encourage "grabbing" the trigger as the student tries to get the shot off before their sights move off target, and they don't provide a positive method of illustrating proper trigger control.
For quite some time now I've used a standard IPSC/IDPA target with a sheet of 8.5x11 paper stapled in the mid-chest area. To start, the paper is printed with thin box about 7" on a side. I teach the "moving point of aim" concept, which I've found rewards proper trigger control and sight alignment while completely eliminating the urge to "grab the shot." Even beginners have no problem putting shots into the box once the concept has been shown.
Once they've absorbed the lesson, I switch to a piece of paper with a 2.5" box centered in the bigger box (again, thin sides) and have them adjust their moving point of aim to place rounds into the smaller box. Again, this brings results quickly and builds confidence that they can control the shot to the degree desired. After that it's easy to teach NOT using the sights, largely because trigger control is no longer an issue.
-=[ Grant ]=-
-=[ Grant ]=-
Gunsmith, Trainer, Writer
Combat Focus Shooting (tm) Instructor
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http://www.grantcunningham.com# Posted 1 year ago -
The thing that I think I would like about the SEB target, is that if they heel, flinch, or other wise under or over control the gun, the results would be seen right away as opposed to after all shots were fired. nip it in the bud so to speak. I feel honored to be conversing with such knowledgable people. I hope to learn alot here.
# Posted 1 year ago -
I do (for myself) mostly what Grant Cunningham suggests. I'm too cheap to buy targets though so I uses white posterboard, yellow 8.5x11 copier paper and white 4x6 index cards. When I have the range to myself and can use more than one shooting lane, I vary the placement of the copier paper and index cards to keep from getting focused too much on hitting the middle of the target.
A couple of times in the past year or two, I found myself consistently missing the index card (I was working on speed). I just shot targets without the index cards until I was satisified with my groups again. Mostly it was a matter of slowing down a little.
# Posted 1 year ago -
Hmmm... I am starting to teach my son to shoot here recently(he is 9y/o) He likes the 22 and has his own Walther P22. Now, I have taken him only a couple times to the range and he HAS TO shoot the nazi zombie targets. I have begun working on trigger control and sight alignment Using the zombie head and upper chest.
First, is there anything I need to do help him other than what I am doing? Second, do I need to make him shoot a more standard type target(like the ones mentioned here) or the keep going with the Nazi Zombie target($1.25EA!!)I hesitate not letting him use the silly target as he is always excited to go shoot zombies!Third, how do I get him to stop emptying a magazine as fast as he can pull the trigger(too many video games)? Lastly, when should I transition him to 9mm...wait till he wants to??
As always, your professional opinions are greatly appreciated!!# Posted 1 year ago -
Ordnancecorp - This is my opinion on it, so take it for what it's worth. I'm sure other opinions will vary.
You are the parent here, so it is up to YOU to make the decision as to what type of targets are going to be used and how fast Junior gets to pull the trigger. At your son's age, safety, safety, safety must absolutely be the top priority and should be emphasized during each exercise and throughout each range session. The second most important thing is making sure he is developing solid shooting fundementals. Don't let his desire for spraying led downrange take precedence over developing good shooting fundementals. It will be much harder to un-learn bad habits later on, than it is to simply learn proper techniques now.
Shooting can be as fun as you are willing to make it. There is nothing wrong with letting your son rapid fire a couple of magazines downrange every now and then if that's what it takes to keep it fun and exciting, but there are plenty of other ways to also challenge him to become a better marksman and a safe practitioner of the art. Keep it safe, keep it consistent with developing good techniques and habits, and keep it fun! Best of luck!
Chris S.
NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
NRA Certified RSO
Missouri CCW Instructor# Posted 1 year ago -
Ordnancecorp asked: "how do I get him to stop emptying a magazine as fast as he can pull the trigger"
When I take my granddaughters shooting (not often enough) I always have a couple of pieces of scrap cardboard that I hotglue a bunch of charcoal briquettes to. The girls like shooting them and at about 20 yards, they are a challenge for a kid holding a rifle. It definitely slows down their shooting but they weren't exactly trigger happy before I started doing this.
It'd be easy for you to try though.
# Posted 1 year ago -
For marksmanship training, I use 1" adhesive dots. You can get them at stationary stores.
I want a target that apears to be just slightly bigger than the front sight. We use the dots at about 5 yards.
These dots are also about the size of an eye :)Students quickly learn what it takes to make a precise shot at those distances. As my students carry guns for protection against attacks by humans, I have them shoot at pictures of humans.
These are the 3 main ones I use;
I teach my students that if they shoot AT someone, they will likely miss. I teach them to focus on something ON the person and hit that. All of the 3 above targets have definite aiming points if you know what to look for.
I don't do PC. I'm teaching people to fight...
Eastern thought meets Western GunFighting# Posted 1 year ago
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