How many train for ambidexterity? « Personal Defense Network Forum

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How many train for ambidexterity?

(15 posts)

cshoff

Senior Member
Joined: Jan '10
Posts: 56

Something I have always tried to impress upon my students, as well as incorporate into my own training, is the skill of being able to use either hand to access, present, and fire the defensive handgun at a target. As one of my favorite writers likes to say, there is no guarantee that both hands will "be able to make the appointment" when the moment of truth arrives.

With that said, it seems as though defensive carry rigs that make presentation with either hand very hard, or even impossible, are becoming more and more popular these days. A lot of folks are now opting for strong side pocket carry with compact to micro-sized guns as a matter of comfort and convenience, and there seems to also recently be a surge of interest in shoulder rigs for one reason or another. Certain types of belt carry, as well as thigh rigs, can make this a difficult task to perform as well.

In my opinion, ambidextrous gun handling is a vital skill that we should all strive to be able to perform efficiently, regardless of our chosen carry method. We never know when or how we may be confronted by a threat, but we can usually count on it coming at the most inopportune moment. I thought it would make for an interesting discussion if we all talked a little about how we addressed this issue in our training.

Is this part of your training regimen? Do you spend a lot of time on it? Do you spend little time on it? Let's hear about your method of carry and how you train for this tactical reality.

Chris S.

NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
NRA Certified RSO
Missouri CCW Instructor

# Posted 6 months ago
RobPincus

Managing Editor
Joined: Jan '10
Posts: 24

cshoff,

Of course, the overwhelming majority of humans can't neurologically control both hands equally. Even those who technically can, won't practice EVERYTHING equally, so true equal dexterity and strength will be incredibly rare and take an extreme amount of time and effort. Therefore, we need to accept that one hand will be better to use as our strong hand than the other.
If we then apply the concepts of Probability and Plausibility to determine how often (and understand why) we might really NEED to use our weak hand, we will quickly see that it is pretty low on the list of priorities for our limited time and resources when it comes to training.

For this reason, in the CFS Program, we shoot less than 5% of our rounds weak handed, usually much less.We do learn the skills to draw, reload and deal with malfunctions weakhanded in our Adv. Pistol Handling class, but certainly don't consider them fundamental defensive firearms skills.

-RJP

# Posted 6 months ago
cshoff

Senior Member
Joined: Jan '10
Posts: 56

I agree that it isn't a skill that should have a disproportionate amount of training time dedicated to it for the very reasons you describe above, but I think it should certainly be a skill we add to our repertoire as we advance our skill-sets. I probably shouldn't have phrased it as a "vital" skill in my original post, as it is more like an "important, often overlooked" skill in reality.

There is a similar amount of time (under 5%) dedicated to week-hand shooting in the NRA classes I teach. I believe 5% (+/-) is a reasonable amount of training time to spend on that skill during a normal training regimen. That said, I've seen any number of people that had pretty fair gun handling skills with their strong hand, but have never attempted any weak-hand shooting or skills of any kind. In a lot of cases, I believe it never crossed their mind to spend a little time working on it.

Chris S.

NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
NRA Certified RSO
Missouri CCW Instructor

# Posted 6 months ago
GrantCunningham

Member
Joined: Jan '10
Posts: 43

When you get right down to it, self defense is really nothing more than contingency planning. Emergency managers, when doing contingency planning for disasters, consider probabilities - what is the likelihood of a tornado versus an earthquake, that sort of thing. They make their preparations accordingly.

In our case, we should look at the kinds of attacks which are most likely, and base our training and equipment on that analysis. As Rob pointed out, we don't have unlimited time/energy/money; skills for higher probability events need to be considered first.

An example: what is the probability that my primary hand will be rendered inoperative at the very start of a fight AND that my attacker will have given me the time necessary to effect a weak-hand draw? Based on my research, I'd say pretty low. On the other hand, what is the probability that I'll be involved in a close-quarters confrontation where empty-hand skills are more important than immediately bringing the gun into play? I'd say much higher, perhaps by an order of magnitude.

If that's the case, where does prudence dictate that I devote my preparation?

Fit the technique to the need, as opposed to fixating on a technique and concocting a scenario in which it might be used.

-=[ Grant ]=-

-=[ Grant ]=-
-
Gunsmith, Trainer, Writer
Combat Focus Shooting (tm) Instructor
-
http://www.grantcunningham.com

# Posted 6 months ago
cshoff

Senior Member
Joined: Jan '10
Posts: 56

Grant, you and Rob have both made some very good and valid points. The truth is, most any scenario is a possibility, but far fewer are a probability. Just as an example, all of us generally spend a lot of time in and around automobiles as a normal part of our day to day affairs, making the likelihood of encountering a threat while in or around those vehicles fairly high. Yet many people who regularly carry have done little to no training that focuses on fighting from a vehicle or around a vehicle.

You guys are right on. Training in and of itself is a balancing act. Trying to make sure we adequately train for higher probability events, yet still trying to make sure we at least familiarize ourselves with skills that may be needed in a lower probability event, can be tough to manage.

I thank you both for sharing your knowledge with me and anyone else who's been reading along with this thread.

Chris S.

NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
NRA Certified RSO
Missouri CCW Instructor

# Posted 6 months ago
RobPincus

Managing Editor
Joined: Jan '10
Posts: 24

In case you guys haven't reach it, check out this essay:

http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_article001340308.cfm?x=b11,0,w

-RJP

# Posted 6 months ago
cshoff

Senior Member
Joined: Jan '10
Posts: 56

Makes a lot of sense. Good read.

Chris S.

NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
NRA Certified RSO
Missouri CCW Instructor

# Posted 6 months ago
CharlesRives

Member
Joined: Jan '10
Posts: 17

The firearms training community is very trendy. I remember that after the Miami FBI shootout, weak hand shooting and one-handed shooting got a lot of attention because the agent who finished the fight did so by operating a Remington 870 one-handed and (if I remember right) another agent took an injury to his dominant hand early in the fight and had to fight with his other hand.

Something happens. Or even a lot of discussion of some plausible thing happens and the gun product industry and training industry is eager to fill the perceived void whether it strikes the plausible/probable threshold or not. There's a buck to be made.

# Posted 6 months ago
Ping

New Member
Joined: Jan '10
Posts: 3

I train more now for being able to shoot with both hands after taking the Combat Focus Shooting course with Rob Pincus in August 2009. Especially with reloading with my weak hand. I may not be perfect but at least I am more practical and efficient than I originally was with my weak hand and my combat accurate shots are superior to what they were before.

# Posted 5 months ago
cshoff

Senior Member
Joined: Jan '10
Posts: 56

Why is it, Ping, that I don't doubt that for a minute? I would LOVE to be able to train under Rob's watchful eye some day! I am envious of you! :)

Chris S.

NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
NRA Certified RSO
Missouri CCW Instructor

# Posted 5 months ago
ZenGunFighter

Member
Joined: May '10
Posts: 15

Arms get hit alot. They are right in front of your chest where the badguy is tossing bullets.
So it makes sense to train to at least a basic level of competency with the support hand.

I had the great fortune to meet Cpl. Fulford at a conference where we were both teaching.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2004-05-06/news/0405060307_1_fulford-north-charleston-home-invaders

Eastern thought meets Western GunFighting

# Posted 2 months ago
cshoff

Senior Member
Joined: Jan '10
Posts: 56

ZenGunFighter wrote:
Arms get hit alot. They are right in front of your chest where the badguy is tossing bullets.
So it makes sense to train to at least a basic level of competency with the support hand......<snip>

The time to learn, develop, and practice off-hand techniques is not during a firefight, that's for sure. I still, to this day, run through most of my regular shooting drills off-hand only at the end of my training sessions. Tis' much better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

Chris S.

NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
NRA Certified RSO
Missouri CCW Instructor

# Posted 2 months ago
ChrisFry

New Member
Joined: Jan '10
Posts: 3

We don't live in a Right handed world. - Brian Hartman of Progressive FORCE Concepts

This pretty much sums it up for me. For all the time and concern given to using proper tactics, it amazes me the number of people who do not train nor consider it a viable option to be proficient at accuratley firing and manipulating your firearms (all of them) from your support side. Like anything, if you train it you will get better. We notice in our classes where within the first four hours your shooting from your strong and support side that a vast majority of student are better shooters from their support side because 1) They take more time and concentrate or 2) They do not have the bad habits they have developed on their strong side. Yet, every day I hear stories how some instructor somewhere is saying people will never be "good enough" shooting from their support side or confident enough to really do it during a critical incident. Well, I hate to say it but following that rationale we will never be good enough at anything we do will we..Mindset. More likely the instructor just doesn't know how to teach it properly, they themselves are not proficient so they wont teach it or they think "If im no good at it then my students never will be!". Oh wait, then theres the excuse of "I focus my training time on skills that will most likely be needed"....

# Posted 2 months ago
Chris Ishmael

New Member
Joined: Jun '10
Posts: 1

Great discussion. I was going to reply to the original question that yes I do train with my weak hand but probably not enough. After reading both Grant and Rob's replies I'm now wondering if I practice it too much, gee thanks guys :). I'm just starting to absorb the whole CFS mindset and now that you've got me thinking more about the probability and plausibility of actually needing to use my weak hand, I'd say I'm at least adequate in that area of my training.

As to Chris Fry's comment about students shooting better from their weak side - on occasion I will shoot better from weak hand than strong and I have always attributed it to the fact that I was really concentrating on the fundamentals as it doesn't feel natural. Like I said it doesn't happen all the time so hopefully it's the increased concentration and not me trying to convince myself that I don't have bad habits on my strong side.

"Let therefore every man, that, appealing to his own heart, feels the least spark of virtue or freedom there, think that it is an honor which he owes himself, and a duty which he owes his country, to bear arms."-Thomas Pownall

# Posted 1 month ago
denflorre

New Member
Joined: May '10
Posts: 1

Weak hand firing makes out 40% of my dry-firing practice and I guess 10% or less of my range training. As a military instructor I find weak hand firing can be important when "cutting a pie", firing under cars, around corners or when wounded. We see during FOF that a lot of shots are going to the hands of the opponent, so I think firing with the "weak" hand should be a skill that has to be trained.
As a firearms instructor is sometimes good to fire with your weak hand. It stays a bit awkward, and it reminds me how it feels when you're firing for the first time like our recruits do.
the results on the weak side or sometimes better because your concentrating more on your fundamentals

# Posted 1 week ago