Personal Defense Network Forum » Training

How many train for ambidexterity?

(26 posts)
  1. cshoff

    cshoff

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    Joined: Jan '10
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    Something I have always tried to impress upon my students, as well as incorporate into my own training, is the skill of being able to use either hand to access, present, and fire the defensive handgun at a target. As one of my favorite writers likes to say, there is no guarantee that both hands will "be able to make the appointment" when the moment of truth arrives.

    With that said, it seems as though defensive carry rigs that make presentation with either hand very hard, or even impossible, are becoming more and more popular these days. A lot of folks are now opting for strong side pocket carry with compact to micro-sized guns as a matter of comfort and convenience, and there seems to also recently be a surge of interest in shoulder rigs for one reason or another. Certain types of belt carry, as well as thigh rigs, can make this a difficult task to perform as well.

    In my opinion, ambidextrous gun handling is a vital skill that we should all strive to be able to perform efficiently, regardless of our chosen carry method. We never know when or how we may be confronted by a threat, but we can usually count on it coming at the most inopportune moment. I thought it would make for an interesting discussion if we all talked a little about how we addressed this issue in our training.

    Is this part of your training regimen? Do you spend a lot of time on it? Do you spend little time on it? Let's hear about your method of carry and how you train for this tactical reality.

    Chris S.

    NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
    NRA Certified RSO
    Missouri CCW Instructor
    # Posted 2 years ago
  2. RobPincus

    Rob Pincus

    Managing Editor
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 59

    cshoff,

    Of course, the overwhelming majority of humans can't neurologically control both hands equally. Even those who technically can, won't practice EVERYTHING equally, so true equal dexterity and strength will be incredibly rare and take an extreme amount of time and effort. Therefore, we need to accept that one hand will be better to use as our strong hand than the other.
    If we then apply the concepts of Probability and Plausibility to determine how often (and understand why) we might really NEED to use our weak hand, we will quickly see that it is pretty low on the list of priorities for our limited time and resources when it comes to training.

    For this reason, in the CFS Program, we shoot less than 5% of our rounds weak handed, usually much less.We do learn the skills to draw, reload and deal with malfunctions weakhanded in our Adv. Pistol Handling class, but certainly don't consider them fundamental defensive firearms skills.

    -RJP

    # Posted 2 years ago
  3. cshoff

    cshoff

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    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 108

    I agree that it isn't a skill that should have a disproportionate amount of training time dedicated to it for the very reasons you describe above, but I think it should certainly be a skill we add to our repertoire as we advance our skill-sets. I probably shouldn't have phrased it as a "vital" skill in my original post, as it is more like an "important, often overlooked" skill in reality.

    There is a similar amount of time (under 5%) dedicated to week-hand shooting in the NRA classes I teach. I believe 5% (+/-) is a reasonable amount of training time to spend on that skill during a normal training regimen. That said, I've seen any number of people that had pretty fair gun handling skills with their strong hand, but have never attempted any weak-hand shooting or skills of any kind. In a lot of cases, I believe it never crossed their mind to spend a little time working on it.

    Chris S.

    NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
    NRA Certified RSO
    Missouri CCW Instructor
    # Posted 2 years ago
  4. GrantCunningham

    GrantCunningham

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    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 63

    When you get right down to it, self defense is really nothing more than contingency planning. Emergency managers, when doing contingency planning for disasters, consider probabilities - what is the likelihood of a tornado versus an earthquake, that sort of thing. They make their preparations accordingly.

    In our case, we should look at the kinds of attacks which are most likely, and base our training and equipment on that analysis. As Rob pointed out, we don't have unlimited time/energy/money; skills for higher probability events need to be considered first.

    An example: what is the probability that my primary hand will be rendered inoperative at the very start of a fight AND that my attacker will have given me the time necessary to effect a weak-hand draw? Based on my research, I'd say pretty low. On the other hand, what is the probability that I'll be involved in a close-quarters confrontation where empty-hand skills are more important than immediately bringing the gun into play? I'd say much higher, perhaps by an order of magnitude.

    If that's the case, where does prudence dictate that I devote my preparation?

    Fit the technique to the need, as opposed to fixating on a technique and concocting a scenario in which it might be used.

    -=[ Grant ]=-

    -=[ Grant ]=-

    Gunsmith, Trainer, Writer
    Combat Focus Shooting (tm) Instructor
    -
    http://www.grantcunningham.com
    # Posted 2 years ago
  5. cshoff

    cshoff

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    Posts: 108

    Grant, you and Rob have both made some very good and valid points. The truth is, most any scenario is a possibility, but far fewer are a probability. Just as an example, all of us generally spend a lot of time in and around automobiles as a normal part of our day to day affairs, making the likelihood of encountering a threat while in or around those vehicles fairly high. Yet many people who regularly carry have done little to no training that focuses on fighting from a vehicle or around a vehicle.

    You guys are right on. Training in and of itself is a balancing act. Trying to make sure we adequately train for higher probability events, yet still trying to make sure we at least familiarize ourselves with skills that may be needed in a lower probability event, can be tough to manage.

    I thank you both for sharing your knowledge with me and anyone else who's been reading along with this thread.

    Chris S.

    NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
    NRA Certified RSO
    Missouri CCW Instructor
    # Posted 2 years ago
  6. RobPincus

    Rob Pincus

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    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 59

    In case you guys haven't reach it, check out this essay:

    http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_article001340308.cfm?x=b11,0,w

    -RJP

    # Posted 2 years ago
  7. cshoff

    cshoff

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    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 108

    Makes a lot of sense. Good read.

    Chris S.

    NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
    NRA Certified RSO
    Missouri CCW Instructor
    # Posted 2 years ago
  8. CharlesRives

    CharlesRives

    Member
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 18

    The firearms training community is very trendy. I remember that after the Miami FBI shootout, weak hand shooting and one-handed shooting got a lot of attention because the agent who finished the fight did so by operating a Remington 870 one-handed and (if I remember right) another agent took an injury to his dominant hand early in the fight and had to fight with his other hand.

    Something happens. Or even a lot of discussion of some plausible thing happens and the gun product industry and training industry is eager to fill the perceived void whether it strikes the plausible/probable threshold or not. There's a buck to be made.

    # Posted 2 years ago
  9. Ping

    Ping

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    I train more now for being able to shoot with both hands after taking the Combat Focus Shooting course with Rob Pincus in August 2009. Especially with reloading with my weak hand. I may not be perfect but at least I am more practical and efficient than I originally was with my weak hand and my combat accurate shots are superior to what they were before.

    # Posted 2 years ago
  10. cshoff

    cshoff

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    Why is it, Ping, that I don't doubt that for a minute? I would LOVE to be able to train under Rob's watchful eye some day! I am envious of you! :)

    Chris S.

    NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
    NRA Certified RSO
    Missouri CCW Instructor
    # Posted 2 years ago
  11. ZenGunFighter

    ZenGunFighter

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    Joined: May '10
    Posts: 15

    Arms get hit alot. They are right in front of your chest where the badguy is tossing bullets.
    So it makes sense to train to at least a basic level of competency with the support hand.

    I had the great fortune to meet Cpl. Fulford at a conference where we were both teaching.

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2004-05-06/news/0405060307_1_fulford-north-charleston-home-invaders

    Eastern thought meets Western GunFighting
    # Posted 1 year ago
  12. cshoff

    cshoff

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    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 108

    ZenGunFighter wrote:
    Arms get hit alot. They are right in front of your chest where the badguy is tossing bullets.
    So it makes sense to train to at least a basic level of competency with the support hand......<snip>

    The time to learn, develop, and practice off-hand techniques is not during a firefight, that's for sure. I still, to this day, run through most of my regular shooting drills off-hand only at the end of my training sessions. Tis' much better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

    Chris S.

    NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
    NRA Certified RSO
    Missouri CCW Instructor
    # Posted 1 year ago
  13. ChrisFry

    ChrisFry

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    We don't live in a Right handed world. - Brian Hartman of Progressive FORCE Concepts

    This pretty much sums it up for me. For all the time and concern given to using proper tactics, it amazes me the number of people who do not train nor consider it a viable option to be proficient at accuratley firing and manipulating your firearms (all of them) from your support side. Like anything, if you train it you will get better. We notice in our classes where within the first four hours your shooting from your strong and support side that a vast majority of student are better shooters from their support side because 1) They take more time and concentrate or 2) They do not have the bad habits they have developed on their strong side. Yet, every day I hear stories how some instructor somewhere is saying people will never be "good enough" shooting from their support side or confident enough to really do it during a critical incident. Well, I hate to say it but following that rationale we will never be good enough at anything we do will we..Mindset. More likely the instructor just doesn't know how to teach it properly, they themselves are not proficient so they wont teach it or they think "If im no good at it then my students never will be!". Oh wait, then theres the excuse of "I focus my training time on skills that will most likely be needed"....

    # Posted 1 year ago
  14. kk0g

    Chris Ishmael

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    Joined: Jun '10
    Posts: 15

    Great discussion. I was going to reply to the original question that yes I do train with my weak hand but probably not enough. After reading both Grant and Rob's replies I'm now wondering if I practice it too much, gee thanks guys :). I'm just starting to absorb the whole CFS mindset and now that you've got me thinking more about the probability and plausibility of actually needing to use my weak hand, I'd say I'm at least adequate in that area of my training.

    As to Chris Fry's comment about students shooting better from their weak side - on occasion I will shoot better from weak hand than strong and I have always attributed it to the fact that I was really concentrating on the fundamentals as it doesn't feel natural. Like I said it doesn't happen all the time so hopefully it's the increased concentration and not me trying to convince myself that I don't have bad habits on my strong side.

    Certified Combat Focus Shooting (TM) Instructor
    # Posted 1 year ago
  15. denflorre

    denflorre

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    Joined: May '10
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    Weak hand firing makes out 40% of my dry-firing practice and I guess 10% or less of my range training. As a military instructor I find weak hand firing can be important when "cutting a pie", firing under cars, around corners or when wounded. We see during FOF that a lot of shots are going to the hands of the opponent, so I think firing with the "weak" hand should be a skill that has to be trained.
    As a firearms instructor is sometimes good to fire with your weak hand. It stays a bit awkward, and it reminds me how it feels when you're firing for the first time like our recruits do.
    the results on the weak side or sometimes better because your concentrating more on your fundamentals

    # Posted 1 year ago
  16. TravisLeibold

    TravisLeibold

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    Joined: Sep '10
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    Ditto: Chris Fry/ denflore If you don't practice it you surely will not have that skill available if you need it. If you hit a plateau shooting with your strong hand, training the left hand can help remind you of the basics. Plus its fun! I can't stand doing things I am already good at. BORING!

    Don't let statistics be an excuse for poor tactics. The old cliche, "5 shots, 5 yards, in 5 seconds" might be pretty accurate, but definitly leaves a heap of violent encounters unaccounted for. Statistically, you will never even draw your gun much less actually fire it to defend yourself. But we all carry guns, with bullets in them, because the penalty for needing and not having them is much greater than the inconvienence of constantly hauling around a couple pounds of steel, alloy, plastic etc.

    Definitly weigh Probability and Plausability, but a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If you notice that a certain corner of your wall is lower than another, bolster it, for you can be sure that is where your Enemy will strike. The Enemy, as always, includes Murphys Law...

    In the interest of full disclosure, my empty hands skills are definitly needing an upgrade!

    # Posted 1 year ago
  17. Glockster23

    Glockster23

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    I am right handed, but left eye dominent. EVERY range session includes one handed shooting from each side and two hand shooting, left handed. Truth is, I shoot just as good left handed as I do from the right. It may be the only thing in life I do "very well".

    # Posted 1 year ago
  18. mrainwater

    mrainwater

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    Posts: 2

    Gentlemen, I'm an FNG to this forum, but I feel compelled to comment on this discussion…How many train for ambidexterity? In my humble opinion, the need for support hand training and the necessity…in the real world…to have the ability to manipulate yours or any weapon with either hand is greatly neglected in most tactical firearms courses; especially courses for Law Enforcement. My experience in Iraq and Afghanistan taught me that the vast majority of injuries occur to the extremities (arms and legs)…this being a direct result of the long awaited availability of the high quality body armor and helmets. Granted your average armed citizen and police officer aren’t dodging IEDs or involved in long duration firefights, but policemen do wear body armor and the most vulnerable portions of their bodies are their extremities. As for the average citizen, who’s to say you won’t injure you strong hand/ arm during a violent encounter or a “Significant Emotional Event”?
    According to the FBI, the majority of gunfights occur in low or no-light conditions with all involved moving. Don’t you think there’s a decent chance that as you’re moving around, and scared like you’ve never been scared before, during a gunfight in the dark…that you might fall, trip over a curb, run into something, etc.
    Please don’t misunderstand me, the likelihood of having to use you weapon with your support hand only is only slightly less likely than you ever being involved in a real gunfight, but how much is your life or the lives of your loved ones worth? Will you ever be “Good Enough”? I’m not saying spend all your time, ammo, and range time on WHO training, but I do believe it should be emphasized more in training and a routine part of your Dry-Fire training regimen.
    Example…I trained to shoot my M4 and MEU (SOC) .45 in every way I thought I would ever have to in combat, prior to my deployment and participation in the invasion in 2003. But the first ambush I was involved in…I found myself firing my M4 left handed (I’m right handed) , twisted around, while trying my damndest to lie down on my right shoulder behind a rucksack that was strapped to the side of the HMMWV I was riding in. If someone had told me to do that in training, I’d have ordered him to the clinic for a drug test. Now I train to do everything with both hands, from every position imaginable (if the RSO or Range Master will let me). Another benefit of more SHO/WHO training is that it makes you shoot better, since they’re less stable and more difficult than freestyle shooting.
    My point is…you never know! So why not spend a little more time, energy, and ammo to be prepared just in case you have to do the “Highly Unlikely” for real. Remember, there’s no Course of Fire to follow in a real gunfight...Mike

    Marine, Contractor, Firearms, and EP/CP Instructor

    # Posted 1 year ago
  19. RobPincus

    Rob Pincus

    Managing Editor
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 59

    We don't live in a Right handed world.

    Yes, we do... I don't even know what that is supposed to mean, Chris.

    Guns are built mostly for right handed people... and most people do most things with their right hand. Saying something that sounds profound does not make it so. Quoting sometimes makes it worse....

    This is starting to sound like a "But you CAN train to shoot 2" groups at 25 yards if you just practice more!" thread.... maybe, but why would you?

    Show me the propensity for left handed defensive handgun use on during counter ambush in the general population...
    Training resources are always limited. Expenditure of said resources must be based on Plausibility of needing the skill that you are developing.

    It IS a great idea to train with the weak hand, but it seems a gross waste of resources to chase parity or anything close to it. You need to know how to run your gun left handed of course, but I am really shocked that so many seem to be determined to stress the need to train for the exception.

    5% is my recommendation... maybe 10%, after you've spent a lot of time for getting the two handed and strong handed stuff really down.

    -Rob

    # Posted 1 year ago
  20. RobPincus

    Rob Pincus

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    Joined: Jan '10
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    Truth is, I shoot just as good left handed as I do from the right.

    Glockster, I've had a lot of people show up to class saying that... never had anyone prove it. If you show up to a course and it's true, I'll comp tuition AND pay for your ammo.

    -Rob

    # Posted 1 year ago
  21. CecilBurch

    CecilBurch

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    Joined: Nov '10
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    I love the Plausibility Principle Rob. I am using it (with due credit of course) every time I teach from now on.

    # Posted 11 months ago
  22. cshoff

    cshoff

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    Joined: Jan '10
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    But in the overall scheme of things, it's not very plausible to think that you will ever need a defensive handgun to begin with. Face it, the vast majority of us will NEVER have to draw, much less fire, our handgun in self defense. With this reality in mind, should we then conclude that anything more than a few casual rounds fired at the target range every couple of months is unnecessary based on the "plausibility principle"?

    Of course not.

    Like it or not, the entire idea of defensive training as a whole is NOT based on "plausibility" to begin with, at least not for the average gun-carrying citizen. As normal civilians, we are essentially preparing for an emergency situation that will likely (and hopefully) never occur. If we were to approach the idea of defensive handgun training based on plausibility alone, most of us probably wouldn't need much more than a run of the mill gun safety course. As Rob said, training resources are limited. So why spend thousands of dollars on training courses, guns, gear, and ammunition with the likelihood of ever needing it being so low? Plausibility? Probability? Nope. I think it's important to have some understanding of that before we try to use "plausibility" as a cornerstone by which we either accept or dismiss any particular tactic or skill.

    The reason we spend all of the money and all of the time on training and practice is because, no matter how remote the possibility and no matter how low the plausibility may be, the COSTS associated with failing are so very high! It only takes one failure to cost you your life or the lives of loved ones, and for most of us here, that potential cost is simply too high to ignore and leave to pure chance. The same thing can be said for developing fighting skills with our "weak" hand. No, it's not likely you will have to rely on that hand to see you through the fight, but the price of not being able to could be ultimate and final. THAT is reality, whether plausible or not.

    But I digress, my intention here is not to argue or even contradict. IMHO, I believe Rob is accurate in suggesting something around 5 - 10% of our training time be devoted to weak hand manipulations. Regardless of how plausible it is we will need it, I seriously doubt that most people possess the physical and mental ability to develop much more pistol handling dexterity in their support hand than what can be realized with that level of training without devoting HUGE amounts of time to support hand training (and at the expense of strong hand manipulations development and maintenance). Remember that support hand training isn't only a physical task, but it is largely a mental one as well. The human mind and body have a very strong tendency to naturally want to do things a certain way. It's not realistic to think you are going to change that built-in "programming" by running a few IDPA matches weak-hand only. Spending much more time on support hand training could quickly get to a point of diminishing returns.

    Heck, we now have some instructors out there that no longer refer to the support hand as the "weak hand", but rather, they call it the "Other Strong Hand" in an attempt to make the shooter not relate his/her "off" hand with the word "weak" (as if it really matters). Never mind the fact that 99.9% of us have two hands, one of which is stronger and more dexterous than the other, and always will be. I think some of these folks are trying to over-complicate things when we get to this point, or perhaps they are simply trying to incorporate something "unique" into their training classes as a way to set them apart from everyone else.

    This has been a very interesting and informative conversation, everyone. I can't thank you all enough for sharing your opinions and expertise with the rest of us.

    Chris S.

    NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
    NRA Certified RSO
    Missouri CCW Instructor
    # Posted 11 months ago
  23. DavidWilliams

    DavidWilliams

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    .

    # Posted 11 months ago
  24. 5shot

    5shot

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    According to the NYPD's long term (and now dated but still good), SOP 9 study of over 6000 Police combat cases, Officers with an occasional exception fired with the strong hand.

    A pistol is not a rifle, so why shoot one like it is.
    # Posted 3 months ago
  25. RobPincus

    Rob Pincus

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    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 59

    Chris, but training IS Based on the probability within context.... One you have decided that needing a gun is Plausible Enough to warrant some of your limited resources, you need to expend them wisely within the niche.

    -RJP

    # Posted 3 months ago
  26. swerve

    swerve

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    Joined: Oct '11
    Posts: 39

    The ranges are normally so short, weak hand only draw and hit times are so slow, that this "skill" doesn't mean much at all. Expending your resources wisely includes looking closely at the stats, and the stats say that 9 x out of 10 incidents, you won't have to hit the bad guy with a bullet in order to run him off. So the "need" for ambidexterity, for pistol use is not real, for anyone but "operators" in a combat zone.

    In high risk areas, if you aint got a real fighting rifle, as well as at least concealed body armor, there's not much hope for you, realistically. With the longarm, you DO need to practice a lot with the weak side shoulder, because firing strong side from the weak side of cover forces you to expose your entire torso. Using the weak shoulder makes you about 3x as difficult a mark.

    However, using AirSoft "longarms", .22lr conversion units, an optical sight, and a good "can" on your M4 mean that you don't have to fire much centerfire rifle ammo at all, really. 1-2k rds per year will suffice, as long as you also shoot several k each with a similar handling AirSoft "rifle' and a .22 unit in your M4. The optical sight and the sound suppressor make the 223 every bit as "tame" to use as the .22unit in the unsuppressed "mode" of firing. So you need not put a lot of rds thru the suppressor, either, if it offers the "snap on and off" convenience of say, a SureFire "can".

    # Posted 3 months ago

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