I am wondering if there are any disadvantages to having the magwell parallel to the ground, as apposed to having it straight vertical, when inserting a fresh mag. for me anyways its easier, but is there something I am missing? Going through Robs videos, it doesn't appear to be advocated. What are the tactical advantages that would offset my speed, and smoothness difference. many thanks.
Personal Defense Network Forum » General Discussion
reload from high compressed ready
(11 posts)-
# Posted 1 year ago
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Parallel to the ground? Do you mean in front of your face, with the muzzle pointed straight up? (Either that, or you're a lot more flexible than I am!)
The cant of the gun relative to the ground depends to a large degree on how you carry/insert your magazines. If you've trained extensively to carry the magazine bullets forward (as I have) and to grab the magazine with the forefinger on the bullet noses, then you'll almost have to cant the gun slightly to efficiently insert the mag into the magwell. That, or you'll have to a) drop the support hand shoulder to get the magazine under the gun, or b) raise the gun to eye level. Both of those options are horribly inefficient.
If you train to carry mags with bullets to the rear, grabbing it so that your thumb is on the primers, it's easy to orient the magazine to go straight up into the magwell. This is what Rob does.
The former method (bullets forward, slightly canting the gun) is slightly less efficient than doing it the other way (bullets back, gun nearly vertical.) In either case, it's important to do your magazine change in the high ready position, where your strength and dexterity are best.
It's also vitally important that you do not look at the gun while performing the reload. The body naturally wants to stay focused on the threat, so train as the body will actually respond.
-=[ Grant ]=-
Gunsmith, Trainer, Writer
Combat Focus Shooting (tm) Instructor
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http://www.grantcunningham.com# Posted 1 year ago -
reno92 wrote:
I am wondering if there are any disadvantages to having the magwell parallel to the ground, as apposed to having it straight vertical, when inserting a fresh mag. for me anyways its easier, but is there something I am missing? Going through Robs videos, it doesn't appear to be advocated. What are the tactical advantages that would offset my speed, and smoothness difference. many thanks.In the classes I have taken with Rob. Reloading from Commpressed ready is most efficient (to me/for me) It makes sense, gravity helps the reload process as well as keeping the Muzzle on target. I learned the way Grant mentioned with the gun pointed up on an angle in front of your face. It is less efficient it seems and makes less tactical sense to me.
Do what works for you! What you can do understress is best. IMO this is the best way,most efficient.
# Posted 1 year ago -
CLAQUATRA wrote:
Do what works for you!The problem with this is that most people will translate it to "what is easiest" or "what I'm already used to doing." Neither one is what we want during a fight.
There are certain ways of doing things that are more efficient and intuitive than others. What we do has to work well with the body's natural reactions and be efficient in the context of the fight.
For instance, it's faster on a square range to reload the gun in front of your face and some distance away. It "works" for a lot of people who shoot IPSC and IDPA. During a fight, however, when we've lost strength and dexterity in our hands it's not efficient to have the gun anywhere but in our workspace - basically at the chest level and close to the body. When the body wants to be focused in on the threat, tracking it and evaluating alternatives, it's not efficient to be staring at the gun as we fumble because it seems to be taking too long to perform the action.
There are some instances, of course, where physical limitations prevent the optimally efficient methods. In those cases the techniques can be suitably modified to retain as many positive attributes as possible.
Absent that specific kind of situation it's best to learn how to do something the optimal way, even if it involves a little retraining to "make it work".
-=[ Grant ]=-
Gunsmith, Trainer, Writer
Combat Focus Shooting (tm) Instructor
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http://www.grantcunningham.com# Posted 1 year ago -
GrantCunningham wrote:
CLAQUATRA wrote:
Do what works for you!
The problem with this is that most people will translate it to "what is easiest" or .I guess my point is ad I should have stated it in my post is this. It appears he has not trained in this system. Watching a video is not as a sufficient training tool as working with a live trainer.
So I stand corrected.... Take a class with I.C.E. its worth every cent! until then.... Use what works for you until you see the system first hand... :)
# Posted 1 year ago -
Actually, I think this video does a good job of explaining the tactical relevance of reloading from high compressed ready, as well as the proper technique to do it.
Chris S.
NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
NRA Certified RSO
Missouri CCW Instructor# Posted 1 year ago
Actually I have. I have more of an issue, trying to do a reload without tucking my elbow in, and reloading from the side rather than from underneath. Yeah I guess I might have picked it up from others, but to me When I try it the way Rob does it, I cant index as well and have a harder time, inserting the mag than otherwise. I am just wondering from a training and tactical aspect, what Benefits are there to make it worth switching. I must be missing something. Even on the small framed glock I have to shift it around to get at the mag release. Another one of the things that smaller hands, is a disadvantage.
# Posted 1 year ago
Perhaps you could be a little more forthcoming by telling us exactly how you reload? I'm still having to guess a lot as to what you're actually doing, and it's preventing a complete answer.
It's not just a matter of where the magazine well is pointed - everything, including how you carry your magazines, factors into the action.
The important points are to keep the gun in the high ready (close in, upper chest) position to reload, AND perform the reload WITHOUT looking at the gun. Are you doing those things now?
Here's where I'm having to do some guessing: if you're carrying your spare mags so that the bullets point forward, and grabbing them so that your forefinger is on the bullet noses, then you'll simply have to cant the gun a bit to make a smooth reload. That's fine, as long as you're not tilting the gun clear over on its side - a slight cant, say 20 degrees, should be all that's necessary.
When grab your magazines that way, the support elbow is going to stick out - that's just a consequence of carrying/handling your spare magazines as I noted above. One reason that Rob carries bullets back/thumb on primers is because it doesn't result in that "chicken wing" effect.
Here's the thing: depending on how you're doing your reloads now, it may or may not make any sense to make major changes. You can end up wasting a lot of time trying to achieve small increases in efficiency when there are far more important things to train/practice. That's why we really need more information. Give us a step-by-step of what you're doing.
-=[ Grant ]=-
Gunsmith, Trainer, Writer
Combat Focus Shooting (tm) Instructor
-
http://www.grantcunningham.com
Gunsmith, Trainer, Writer
Combat Focus Shooting (tm) Instructor
-
http://www.grantcunningham.com
# Posted 1 year ago
Well here goes. after slide lock, I dump maga zine out while still oriented towards threat. I have to cant the gun slightly because I have short enough thumbs that I cant keep a good firing grip. I bring gun into high compressed ready, while retrieving next mag, I do carry with bullets forward. while keeping muzzle indexed towards threat, I cant the gun to the right, bringing the mag across my body,inserting mag. then overhand the slide as I extend the gun if reengaging threat, otherwise I overhand release the slide and remain in high compressed ready. At no time is the firearm pointed any where but towards the threat, the only differnce is that I am inserting mag from the side rather than from underneath the firearm. I know it is hard to explaine without being able to visualize it. In the class we were taught to do it the way you do it, but I was having problems indexing correctly, and I was more fumble prone. It could be more practice is needed to over come this obstacle, and I have been, but just wondering if it was dependant on hand size and finger length. There are certain things I can not do the way Explained without putting extended mag releases and such on my firearms. In certain cases I believe the firearm itself dictates, operational modes. My problem is that the XD,small framed Glock and 1911 are the biggest trigger reach guns I can run good. I hope this helps.
# Posted 1 year ago
I have very small hands too, so I feel your pain.
There are some things to look at: first, as you bring the gun back to the ready position work your hand around the gun - don't flip the gun in your hand. The barrel should stay (roughly) aligned on the threat as the mag release is pushed.
After the magazine is dropped, and as the gun approaches the ready position, you should have worked the hand back into a perfect firing grip. This is important: before you insert the magazine, the firing hand must have a normal shooting grip on the gun. Again, the muzzle remains aligned on the target.
If you do that, you'll find that with the forefinger on the bullet noses you should have to cant the gun only slightly to get a smooth magazine insertion. Any more tilt than than about 20-30 degrees is just wasted effort (it can also indicate that the gun is far too low when the reload is being done. Check that carefully.)
If you're used to carrying magazines bullets forward, I wouldn't advise you to retrain. There just isn't enough of a benefit to bullets backward to justify the amount of effort necessary to make that change.
-=[ Grant ]=-
Gunsmith, Trainer, Writer
Combat Focus Shooting (tm) Instructor
-
http://www.grantcunningham.com
Gunsmith, Trainer, Writer
Combat Focus Shooting (tm) Instructor
-
http://www.grantcunningham.com
# Posted 1 year ago
Actally how You explain it is how I do it. Many thanks for the insight. I was trying to do everything exactly as taught. Just couldnt quite pull it off. When taking the next class I hope they understand that I am trying to duplicate the techniqes as close as I can. I am excited to take the next step, but feel I could take the CFS class again, and learn something new. Even though I have my instructor credentials, I have always felt the learning should never stop. I have taken more training since getting certified,than I can actually afford, but I feel its worth it in the long run. I want others to not have to learn the wrong things, as I have. I am constantly re evaluating my skills. Thanks again for the help.
# Posted 1 year ago
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