Personal Defense Network Forum » Handguns

31. 

    MikeM
    

    New Member
    Joined: Feb '10
    Posts: 1

    Demo does make a very good point here guys. The whole concept behind a sub-compact gun is that it is small enough and light enough to carry with you at ALL times. Lets not forget the first rule of any gunfight - Have a Gun!

    Is the .380ACP round ever going to match a .45ACP? No. But then again we are not likely to see a manageable .45ACP thats the same size as the new generation of pocket pistols. Even a gun such as the Kahr PM40 offers a very small frame in a larger caliber but the recoil is pretty stiff. So for those people who can't afford to carry a gun the size that a larger caliber gun some of these .380ACP subcompact semi-auto's fit the bill very well.

    For those who argue that the .380 ins't manageable in such a small sized frame (often citing the polymer LCP or Kel-tec), you likely have not shot a gun such as the Sig P238. I can tell you from direct experience (owning 2 of them) that the recoil of a P238 is very manageable (almost negligible). It is not hard at all to get consistent combat accurate shots quickly on target using this particular handgun. Understand that Im not saying that the P238 is a perfect gun without flaws (it is an SAO trigger with a manual safety for example). I'm just stating the fact that there are very small .380ACP pistols out there that are controllable and accurate and fill a very useful place in the concealed carry and personal defense market.

    If you are interested in reading more about the P238, there are many posts about its trials, tribulations, and successes as well as a product review at http://www.armstalk.com.

    I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss the .380ACP cartridge. The sheer number of manufacturers making these guns and the consistent shortage of .380ACP ammo in the market are indicators that many people are fond of them.

    # Posted 5 months ago
32. 

    cshoff
    

    Senior Member
    Joined: Jan '10
    Posts: 56

    Demo - You are talking about +P ammo now. I've yet to see anything from Kel-Tec, Ruger, Bersa, or even SIG that approves the use of .380 +P ammunition in their firearms. In fact, the SIG P238 operators manual specifically states:

    ....."The proper caliber is permanently engraved on your firearm; never attempt to use ammunition of any other caliber.".....

    If the barrel of your gun only has ".380 ACP" stamped in it, it would appear as though the use of +P ammunition would not be approved.

    Mike - You are pointing out attributes that some of us have already mentioned here. There is no doubt that if ultimate concealment is your requirement, it's hard to beat the flat, compact design of some of these pocket pistols. I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that point. However, that same attribute also changes the dynamics of the training one must utilize in order to "run the gun" efficiently. As has already been pointed out, it takes more dexterity to properly manipulate these smaller pistols than it does a larger gun.

    The other thing I believe is worth mentioning here is the tendency for these small guns to have feed and extraction issues. Even the RECENT ARTICLE in American Rifleman where range tests on 9 different .380 pocket guns were performed, including the SIG P238, is quoted as saying:

    ....."I am concerned about the number of cycling malfunctions, most commonly failures to feed and chamber. With one exception, every gun experienced these problems....."

    At the very least, this highlights the importance of a thorough and complete break-in period to get these little guns to an acceptable level of functional reliability; something I doubt most owners really do.

    In my opinion, these little guns are a solution to a unique problem. They are not, however, a replacement for a larger, more powerful, and more reliable handgun in environments where the larger handgun can be carried.

    Chris S.
    
    NRA Certified Pistol, PPITH, & PPOTH Instructor
    NRA Certified RSO
    Missouri CCW Instructor

    # Posted 5 months ago
33. 

    brianko
    

    New Member
    Joined: May '10
    Posts: 1

    I've been carrying a Kahr PM9 and/or CW9 for over a year now. If it weren't for these two single-stack 9mm, I probably wouldn't be carrying on a regular basis: Being a rather small guy, carrying around my Sig 229 or XD-9, is simply out of the question.

    Further up-post, someone commented on the idea that a beneficial side-effect for sub-compacts is the possibility that those who normally wouldn't carrry because of the wardrobe modifications required for larger handguns might now be enticed to carry with a sub-compact. To me, that's the name of the game: We can argue about shooting characterisitcs all day long, but in the end, concealed carry isn't effective unless you're carrying. Since studies have shown that most CHL interactions occur at close range, I question whether some of these discussions are anything more than academic exercises.

    At an rate, I carry every day now, everywhere I go (except school...for some strange reason, our state legislature puts a smaller value on the lives of our children than the lives of their parents). I alternate the Kahrs, IWB at about 3 o'clock, and can continue wearing the same clothes I already own.

    # Posted 2 months ago
34. 

    ZenGunFighter
    

    Member
    Joined: May '10
    Posts: 15

    Pretty much anyone can conceal a Kahr PM9. There really isn't any reason to go smaller in size than that.
    The Kahr is small and light enough to conceal, but large enough with good sights and usable trigger so that it can actually be used in a fight.
    Carrying a firearm is all about compromises and balances. Anything smaller than the Kahr PM9 or lightweight J frame is going too far the wrong way as far a 'balancing' carry-ability vs. fight-ability

    Eastern thought meets Western GunFighting

    # Posted 2 months ago
35. 

    rsharrer
    

    New Member
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 4

    ZenGunFighter wrote:
    Pretty much anyone can conceal a Kahr PM9. There really isn't any reason to go smaller in size than that.
    The Kahr is small and light enough to conceal, but large enough with good sights and usable trigger so that it can actually be used in a fight.
    Carrying a firearm is all about compromises and balances. Anything smaller than the Kahr PM9 or lightweight J frame is going too far the wrong way as far a 'balancing' carry-ability vs. fight-ability

    Zen I have to agree, I have a Kahr PM9 and I carry it from time to time, it is light weight 7 shot 9mm. I like to call it my dress weapon. I carry my glock .40cal. most of the time but there are just times that you can not carry a gun that big, in those times I carry my Kahr.

    Ryan

    # Posted 1 week ago
36. 

    kyglockman
    

    New Member
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 4

    hey everybody, i just joined and its great to be here. but wanted to chime in on this topic!

    as my user name implies, i am a huge glock fan! my main carry piece is a glock 27 .40, and if i need a bigger one i carry a 23 .40! but there is just some times i cant carry one of them so in those times i have carried a kel tec p3at for years! i can shoot the p3at almost as good as i can my bigger ones it is accurate and good shooting the only down fall is the small size is harder to shoot well even my glock 27 i can get my whole hand around with a grip extension but even without the extension i shoot it a little better because it is just bigger and more gun in my hand! no the 380 does not have as much knock down power as a 9 or .40 but those are still handguns as well. i wish i could carry around a rifle strapped to my back but it would attract to much attention and be harder to get in to action, lol... but anyway i have shot my little gun for years and am pretty dern good with it! but around the house it is a tool to get to a better tool and as a only carry gun on the street i believe with other things it will be enough to get me home safe if i ever need it!! i made the decision a little bit back to really get a light wait thin easily carried gun but in 9mm because i to believe in a handgun anyway the bigger the caliber the better! but after looking at just about every little 9mm on the market i finally chose one!! and dont get the wrong i love my glock 27 and thought about getting a glock 26 for cheaper ammo and less recoil but it is still the same thickness as my 27 and right on the same wait! so what would i be really doing if i am not changing the size why shoot the lesser bullet! i wanted something thin and very light! i looked at everything from the khars to the new taurus' and so on! i did noti like the price of the pm9 from khar, at $650 i can do without it! and the others i looked at were simply to heavy i wanted as light as i could in a 9mm! so i got the kel tec pf9 its younger brother has protected me for years. so why not give it a try! at less then an inch thick and less then a pound fully loaded it is a joy to carry and the respect i have for kel tec's made my decision! but it is still a little gun and wit hmuch practice and about a thousand rounds later i can shoot it just a good as my glock 27!! so wit henough practice and determination i believe anybody can learn to shoot what they want to carry! yes i do not want to leave the house without one of my glock .40s but in reality ist is not always possible! if yo uwant t ocarry a little gun just remember it is a little gun and that just means you have to be that much better with it! because i dont care how little the bullet is i dont know anybody that wants to be shot with it! and if you do your part and hit the right spot it will do its job to the best of its ability!

    guys sorry so long winded and thanks for letting me be apart of yalls forum!

    stay safe & shoot straight

    # Posted 1 week ago

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