With the discussion of "Realistic Training". As a civilian attending so called "Tactical" type training (Running and Gunning, Carbines and Transitions) are you training to your fight or within your scope? Or, are you on a fantasy adventure? What's your Plausibility Factor?
Your thoughts.
A whole new industry of training as entertainment has opened in the past several years. There are a bunch of counter-terrorism-for-Midwesterners courses that are entirely developed to fulfill Walter Mitty fantasies.
I don't really mind if someplace wants to teach sniping, team-tactics room entries, or similar skills to civilians. I just hope that most of the students in those civilian classes understand that they're expending a training budget of time and money on an entertainment class rather than a class that will probably help them to manage a violent encounter.
I budget my training time based on probabilities. I think I'm much more likely to be in a violent confrontation that won't justify the use of deadly force than one that does. So, I spend a lot of time and effort keeping my less-lethal skills up and keeping myself fit enough to fight or run. Beyond that, I think I'm most likely to be in a lethal fight at contact or near contact distance. So, I spend time working on extreme close range pistol skills and knife skills. Again, power, agility, quickness and fitness are keys to being able to fight effectively at this range regardless of the weapon presence.
Once the ranges open up beyond about 2-yards, the probability and risk drops off significantly. So, I spend less and less time working and training at longer and longer ranges.
My pistol training takes place at TDI - Tactical Defense Institute in Ohio. I trust those guys to keep the training realistic - and I believe they have.
I will, eventually, do some shotgun training. I know that includes some 50 yard shots - not necessary for the urban jungle of Chicago. However, it's a skill that I want to learn. So, I guess for me the answer is Mostly Realistic Situational Training / A Little Bit of some Skill Sets that would be Fun to Have.
I strive to keep my training focused on possible responses and possible solutions to the tactical realities that an armed citizen such as myself is most likely to encounter in the civilian world I live and conduct my business in each day. I find it highly unlikely that I will be needing urban rifle fighting skills anytime in the near future. I also doubt I will be needing to perform any dynamic entries as a member of an elite tactical team or serving as a counter terrorism consultant anytime soon.
What I CAN fathom is that I may need to have an avoidance/deescalation/force/deadly force response plan in place when I make my next trip to the bank or convenience store or when I am walking to my car in a dimly lit parking lot sometime next week. I can also see a need for having a home defense plan in place in the event that I awaken to my door being kicked in at 2:00 tomorrow morning, and I may even find myself at a stop light, trapped in traffic, at which time some thug might walk up, poke a 9mm Hi-Power in my face, and demand my vehicle.
My training resources are finite. I try to use them very wisely.
Jason, Great thought provoking question. As my training budget goes for realistic training for the most part, There is always the possibility for some type of "fantasy" training.
Most of the training is real world related, but I would very much like to attend some long range rifle course. For me this has no application in the real world, but something I have always wanted to do. I am fortunate that my job requires what the "Walter Mitty's" would love to do.
I can understand why someone would enjoy these types of courses, as an unrealistic release. But with budgets the way they are now I keep thew focus on realistic traning.
Great discussion guys! Thanks
Great issue... I think it kinda comes down to INTEGRITY. We've offered "simulated" Spec Ops type courses as Team Building events for corporate types, but they were ADVERTISED that way and the certificates say "Simulated..." on them. If the local physician is buying half the Blackhawk! catalog and running around a cornfield throwing smoke bombs and then getting a Hostage Rescue Team training certificate, something is wroooong, IMO.
On the other hand, there is no reason that physician shouldn't have the opportunity to do EXACTLY the same counter ambush unarmed & pistol training that a narcotics detective might get... because their defense in the close quarters ambush is going to be based on very similar conditions and principles.
It can be a touchy subject to try to draw lines around, but subjectively, I think we should all be able to look at a course (or in the mirror) and know what is right.
-RJP
I have always felt and said and heard many times you fight like you train. I think that is true, when I go out to the range i try to train my self to shoot like I would if I was being threatened. If I am laxed at the range then I will train myself to be laxed, if I train well then hopefully I will be still standing if I ever have to use my training to defend my life or the life of another. I think that the main thing is you have to look at what knowledge your instructor has and what you can take away from the training. A lot of training can be just going out and praticing shooting, weapon handling, etc...
Just my thoughts,
Ryan
I feel that you do not need have a profession that requires such training in order to take part in it. I mean, you can enjoy it and have fun while learning real skills that can safe your life one day. On the same level, people who have professions in the firearms and training industries didn't decide to seek those types of professions because they wouldn't enjoy their work. If you don't take something home at the end of the day and don't enjoy the training to some point, then you probably need to look for a new job/hobby.
I would like to look at this from another point of view. We see a lot of reality based shooters that spent all their energy and time focusing only on the "reality" training. If you always shoot at 0-10 meters and focus only on the things that are most likely to happen then you are not being as efficient in your training as you could be. It´s extremely important to every once in a while to go back to the fundamentals of shooting (from the technical point of view). Take the time in your training to concentrate solely on your shooting skills and not just on the defencive shooting. One great way to do this is to shoot some traditional sport shootings because it allows you to concentrate on your teqhnicue (sight picture, aiming, pressing the trigger etc.) and takes your mind away from the defencive point of view just for a second making you more effecient next time you train defensive shooting.
It´s important to broaden your point of views and not to concentratre solely on one way to do things. But as always this is balancing between the time and money that we have for training and the things that we need to learn. No correctly done training is bad or unusefull but it is all about what makes you safer in your time of need.
-HP
klopesw wrote:
I would like to look at this from another point of view. We see a lot of reality based shooters that spent all their energy and time focusing only on the "reality" training. If you always shoot at 0-10 meters and focus only on the things that are most likely to happen then you are not being as efficient in your training as you could be. It´s extremely important to every once in a while to go back to the fundamentals of shooting (from the technical point of view). Take the time in your training to concentrate solely on your shooting skills and not just on the defencive shooting. One great way to do this is to shoot some traditional sport shootings because it allows you to concentrate on your teqhnicue (sight picture, aiming, pressing the trigger etc.) and takes your mind away from the defencive point of view just for a second making you more effecient next time you train defensive shooting.
It´s important to broaden your point of views and not to concentratre solely on one way to do things. But as always this is balancing between the time and money that we have for training and the things that we need to learn. No correctly done training is bad or unusefull but it is all about what makes you safer in your time of need.
-HP
I agree to a point. Basic marksmanship should be practices. However, in my opinion, one should not consider defensive training and tatics until marksmanship is as second nature as it can be.
klopesw wrote:
I would like to look at this from another point of view. We see a lot of reality based shooters that spent all their energy and time focusing only on the "reality" training. If you always shoot at 0-10 meters and focus only on the things that are most likely to happen then you are not being as efficient in your training as you could be. It´s extremely important to every once in a while to go back to the fundamentals of shooting (from the technical point of view). Take the time in your training to concentrate solely on your shooting skills and not just on the defencive shooting. One great way to do this is to shoot some traditional sport shootings because it allows you to concentrate on your teqhnicue (sight picture, aiming, pressing the trigger etc.) and takes your mind away from the defencive point of view just for a second making you more effecient next time you train defensive shooting.
It´s important to broaden your point of views and not to concentratre solely on one way to do things. But as always this is balancing between the time and money that we have for training and the things that we need to learn. No correctly done training is bad or unusefull but it is all about what makes you safer in your time of need.
-HP
I believe the discussion at hand was more about spending time and money taking various training courses, ie: Is it productive for a typical CCW civilian, for example, to spend an entire years worth of training budget and 5 full days going through some kind of high-speed rifle course, or would this person be better off by spending much less time and money on, perhaps, a CFS course, and perhaps a couple of other defensive pistol courses throughout the year?
Yes, it's always a good idea to review the basics every so often; taking a day for some leisurely shooting is a good refresher, a good stress reliever, and a good break from monotony. That said, most all of your more advanced training classes have at least a cursory review of the basics, and in most cases, if you don't have at least a certain mastery of those basics, you won't do well in those courses anyway. Basics and fundamentals, by all rights, are being practiced each and every time you take to the range, even during "realistic" training (at least, they should be).
Chris, you are right that I went a little off the topic. My point just was that too often defensive shooters get "blinded" by these tactical aspects and forget to practice the fundamentals enough. For example some might think that attending these tactical courses is enough to make them good defensive shooters but it is only a part of it. An instructor once told me that doing these defensive shooting drills drains your shooting skills (technically) and you must do some markmanship training in order to regain it.
-HP
klopesw wrote:
Chris, you are right that I went a little off the topic. My point just was that too often defensive shooters get "blinded" by these tactical aspects and forget to practice the fundamentals enough. For example some might think that attending these tactical courses is enough to make them good defensive shooters but it is only a part of it. An instructor once told me that doing these defensive shooting drills drains your shooting skills (technically) and you must do some markmanship training in order to regain it.
-HP
Another point I would like to add - practicing marksmanship seperate from taking a course is important because you can focus on one thing - shooting. That way when you get to that course, you can focus on learning new skills. Another point - pratice and training are not the same thing. Practice is something you can do on your own. Training is going out there and learning new skills and being instructed. After you train on something specific, then you should practice that new skill and make your marksmanship a part of it.
klopesw wrote:
Chris, you are right that I went a little off the topic. My point just was that too often defensive shooters get "blinded" by these tactical aspects and forget to practice the fundamentals enough. For example some might think that attending these tactical courses is enough to make them good defensive shooters but it is only a part of it. An instructor once told me that doing these defensive shooting drills drains your shooting skills (technically) and you must do some markmanship training in order to regain it.
-HP
Well one thing is for sure, the way you apply the basics and fundamentals while performing defensive shooting techniques can and is certainly different than how they are applied in bench-rest shooting or bullseye competition. With that said, I can see where the technical aspects of some of those skills could "deteriorate" to some degree if all of your practice and training was solely focused on defensive shooting, but to what detriment, I'm not certain.
Since I am retired, I see the probability of going through a door raiding a dope house or serving a warrant being just about zero. However, I still practice some of the skills required to do these things for no other reason than to remain sharp, and because by golly...I enjoy it.
That being said, the possibility of me spending money on an urban terror course with the tactical teddy cubicle drone types who wear their 5/11 britches to the insurance company and do tactical exits to their urban assault minivans is also...just about ZERO.
Would I go back to Thunder Ranch? YEP.
LFI? YEP.
Take a course from Rob? Next time he is in AZ...I will be there.
There are a lot of tools in a lot ofdifferent tool boxes, and I like to find the best wrench for me. I don't allow dogmatic thinking or "my way is the only way" to color my choices in training.
I shoot steel twice a week. Realistic training? Nope. Not by a long shot, but unlike a lot of the gamers, I wear concealment clothing and use my carry gun...sometimes I shoot my BUG at these matches. For no other reason than good shooting is good shooting, and just every once in a while, the match director sets us up a likely scenario that an armed civvy may have to resolve.
Heck, it's still America...if you got the budget do it. I just prefer to spend my shoot em up allowance on realistic training.
I do think a lot of the training out there caters to Walter Mitty fantasies but Americans are, so far, a wealthy people and can afford exotic entertainment. However, just because it's fantasy doesn't mean I can't learn from it. If the instructor is serious and is using the fantasy elements to help the student focus then the attitude I approach it with makes a difference.
For example, I went to a "zombie" shoot a few months ago. Hard to get more fantastic that. Some guys showed up with AR's, tactical lights, vests with 10 or 12 magazines hanging from them, and a pistol with at least four or more spare magazine on their belt. One guy even had Raccoon City PD patches. I'm sure they had good time but come the zombie apocalypse (it's a metaphor, OK?) how many people are actually going to have that kind of hardware at hand? I could be wrong but, for those guys I think it was largely entertainment.
Nevertheless, the instructor seemed to be serious about teaching. The targets looked like zombies but things like the use of concealment/cover, shooting a handgun from a prone position or reloading while moving seemed pretty worthwhile to me. When I shot the targets, I shot them just like they were real world bad people. Even then I was a bit into fantasy mode since I used my 686 with the 6" bbl and I had four reloads on my belt. I also had a couple more in my shirt pocket JIC 35 rounds wasn't enough to get through.
Despite having a good time, I learned something about my strengths and weaknesses. I think that is a good thing and made it worth the price of admission. Certainly beats wasting the money at a strip club.
Once you get the fundamentals down you don't need to practice them daily, but you should return to them from time to time. Practice realistic situations often. As someone mentioned earlier "Train like we fight". And of course, have fun. A friend of mine likes to hang a bowling pin from a tree and shoot at it. Is that realistic tarining? Not at all. Is it useful? Absolutely. You know you hit the pin when it swings, then you can try to hit it while it's moving. Any trigger time is useful trigger time.
Parabarbarian, I went to the DPMS Panther Arms Zombie shoot last year and had a blast! I had my MK12 on the 3 point sling and my Five seveN pistol in my leg rig. I was the only one in line at the 200 yard range with open sights, but I performed as well as most of the guys with scopes. They rushed their shots too much. I did pretty good shooting from the horse, but I did way better from the rooftop. That's right, I shot at targets while sitting on a horse, a wooden one, but a horse none the less. That's about as far from realistic training as it gets, but it sure was fun.
The question I always ask, is "is this student SAFE with advanced stuff, or does he/she need a LOT more stay in place, "square range" work? I prefer to do a lot of the fancy stuff, with semi trained people at least, with Airsoft "guns". No need to bother going to a range, no need of ear muffs, so they can HEAR you comment as they screw up, and nobody's going to get killed. Wear face/throat protection, and "cops and robbers' with AirSoft can teach you a LOT about what you THINK you can do (when under stress) just flat out does'nt WORK, even without the flinching induced by the muzzleblasts, flashes, and real fear!. :-) You'll find out, reall quick, that "shot placement" is bs of the worst order, unless the attacker has no gun and is still 6 ft or further from you.
Known and Unknowns, with the known at least I have the comfort level of a well practiced plan, fully flexible, with at least a plan b and c. With unknowns I am just not so sure, I mean how do you train for that?
Allot of courses I have been researching, some mentioned here, could be considered "fantasy" for me, as they fit no practical model in my life. But then again, the unknown, really isn't trying to be a familiar friend is it.
I responded once to a school shooting in my truck, the message from the district was unclear, feedback from multiple sources cited students being shot by a man outside campus with a gun. I arrived at the wrong school as I went straight to my daughters . None of my life experience's prepared me for that, but I am pretty sure my Dodge 2500 utility bed would have kept that dude from reloading. As it was 5 unarmed construction workers chased, dodged, and took that confused individual down when he hit empty. One f them was quoted as saying "they didn't have any training for that" I am thinking if one of them did, and was armed, they could of dodged less, and the bad guy might of got off less shots. Then again this is California so the hero's if armed would of been villains.
Its just like Fantasy for me. :)
nice post , i like it !!
I agree with AE3007H1. There is no such thing as too much education. Saying that ordinary folks taking special ops type training are just having a cops-n-robbers playday and will never be in a position to kick down doors, etc. reminds me of my son telling me he doesn't need to study calculus/science/history (fill in the blank) because he doesn't plan on becoming a scientist, historian, etc. Education builds on itself and what you learn from kicking down doors at Fantasy camp may help to save your life in ways Walter Mitty never dreamed.
fkarlh wrote:
I agree with AE3007H1. There is no such thing as too much education. Saying that ordinary folks taking special ops type training are just having a cops-n-robbers playday and will never be in a position to kick down doors, etc. reminds me of my son telling me he doesn't need to study calculus/science/history (fill in the blank) because he doesn't plan on becoming a scientist, historian, etc. Education builds on itself and what you learn from kicking down doors at Fantasy camp may help to save your life in ways Walter Mitty never dreamed.
There is no doubt that a person stands to gain some knowledge and skills from the "fantasy" courses we've been discussing, and at some point in that person's life, they potentially could find themselves in a position to implement some of that knowledge and skill. I don't think anyone would argue that.
But when we look at it from a pragmatic angle, the reality is that most armed citizens train much less than what is "ideal" for a number of reasons, the least of which are not time and money. When the "average" gun carrying citizen only allows a handful of days and a limited amount of money for training each year, what kind of training would be the most beneficial for that person? Is this person better off to spend all of his/her money going through a high-dollar sniper class, or would they be better off to spend it going through several reasonably-priced classes that cover various aspects of self defense?
And this is where I think people need to be careful and realistic in their training decisions. I've seen a number of guys save up money all year just so they can go attend some high-speed carbine course several states away, and in the meantime, they are shooting their daily carry less and less and allowing their perishable skills to deteriorate because they don't have the extra money left over for pistol ammo. To me, that kind of decision defies logic.
You are absolutely correct in you statement and thinking. I insert the analogy of the smoker. They should spend their money on other things but for some reason they still buy the cigarettes!
Another example of this human thought process: I am a private pilot. I have my tail dragger sign off and have more aerobatic hours than instrument hours. The aerobatic hours and training is not practical for my everyday flying of getting from one airport to another, hell it will not even help me fly in bad weather or at night. What it will help me do is evade the Red Barron if he ever "gets on my tail". haha You see every time that I walk across the tarmac and I have the choice to go and train in the boring Cessna for my instruments rating or. go get in the CITABRIA tail dragger aerobatic plane and fly well, upside down.. I ALWAYS END UP IN THE CITABRIA!!!!!! haha
So you can say that I am guilty of the same training woes and mistakes as you stated. But I offer this:
My level of awareness has increased exponentially since the start of my aerobatic training. At the risk of sounding cliche "everything in the cockpit slowed down" after the first couple of aerobatic hops. Before I was always "behind the plane" in that I was reacting to what the plane was doing and always a step behind. After that particular moment on the second aerobatic hop that I took everything slowed down. I now am ahead of the plane and am able to anticipate what it is and is going to do. It has made me a MUCH better pilot. I am much better equipped to instinctively handle rough and windy conditions that might accompany that bad weather I spoke of earlier. I am better equipped to handle all types of adversary that could and has happened while in the air. And if that Red Barron ever gets on my tail I know I can shake him! haha
Bottom line is we are back to the face that anytime a fire arm is in your hands, and you are getting training, and most importantly you are observing safety precautions, it is a good thing. We as trainees tend to train on the things that we like and not what we don't. This is an area that we all could look at by being honest with ourselves and training more on those things and areas that we are not good at.
Bottom line is we are back to the face
sorry, i meant to say "bottom line is we are back to the FACT" haha
You must Log In to post.
