Interactions with Law Enforcement Session 5: Firearms in Vehicles

There's little doubt that the most common interaction people have with law enforcement while armed, is going to be while they're in their vehicle. Probably being pulled over for a traffic violation. Now, we all know that that can be a little bit stressful. Personally, I know that I occasionally violate traffic laws that get me pulled over and it's usually not a surprise. When I see those lights come on or when I see the officer getting ready to pull in off the median onto the highway.

I know that I was probably speeding or that maybe I wasn't paying a lot of attention or maybe that I changed lanes without a signal and that there's probably a good reason why he's gonna interact with me. And I start thinking about the potential ramifications of that. I may not be thinking about the fact that I'm carrying a firearm and that there's a firearm exposed inside of my vehicle. Now, of course, that's probably not the case when I'm driving the Personal Defense Network tour truck. When I'm driving my vehicle that has all of those logos from PDN from firearms companies and from affiliated companies in the firearms industries all over it.

There's really no reason that I should doubt that the officer approaching that vehicle was going to believe that I am armed or at least that there are firearms inside of the car. And if you've got stickers from Firearms Rights Organizations, if you've got stickers from Personal Defense Network, if you've got pictures of guns displayed on your car for any reason, you also should very well know that that officer is gonna have a concern about firearms being in the car. Now, individual officer behavior or opinions towards firearms can't be predicted. It's possible that they are as pro gun as you or me, that they love seeing legally armed people responsibly carrying firearms, or keeping them accessible for the defense of themselves or others in the public space and that they're gonna be as likely to want to talk to you about what kind of gun you're carrying because they're interested in guns as a gun enthusiast and gun collector, as it is that they're concerned about any potential violation of law or a threat you may pose. But of course, it's also possible that any individual officer doesn't share our opinions or our enthusiasm for the right to keep and bear arms or guns in general as a shooter or enthusiast or collector.

So if you're displaying the obvious fact that you have firearms in the car or if you're much more subtle about carrying a firearm but you know there's one in there, be prepared for that interaction with law enforcement. And this is where worksheet number three comes in. Worksheet number three has a series of questions that if you do the research to be able to answer properly you'll be more confident in your ability to comply with the law in your state or any state that you may be traveling to or through when you have a firearm inside of the vehicle. And this is true, whether you're carrying the firearm, whether the firearm is staged for defensive use and exposed inside of the passenger compartment or whether the firearm is stored outside of the passenger compartment, whether it's disassembled or kept in any other legal way. Now, in some places you're gonna find that worksheet number three will lead you to learn that a vehicle is considered very much like your home.

The same exact rules apply. Once you're inside of that vehicle, in that state as long as you are in the vehicle, you can have a firearm in any condition that you would have it in your home. Sometimes even without a legal permit to carry a firearm in the public space. That means you can have it on your body. You could have it on your body concealed.

It could be exposed. It could be in a permanently mounted holster inside of your car, or it could be obviously stored if you're transporting it to the range or out on a hunting trip or for any other reason outside of your immediately accessible area. Other states have very, very different rules. Some states have the rule that you can carry the firearm, obviously, if you have a concealed carry permit but not if you can't. Some states allow you to have a vehicle firearm exposed and accessible, but not concealed.

Other states are gonna restrict you to only having a firearm in a case, locked, inaccessible, unloaded possibly even disassembled. And many states, if you're not a resident of that state, require you to simply be passing through that state under the federal cover law for gun owners to safely travel with firearms between places where they can legally possess them. So the laws can be tricky and worksheet number three is gonna be one that you wanna spend some time on, if you ever travel with a firearm inside of your vehicle as most gun owners do. So whether you wanna pause now and do that or wait until the end of this video session, make sure that you spend time on worksheet number three before completing this class so that you have those answers at the ready and you've know that you've done the research and as always with any laws, make sure that you're keeping up to date on any changes and not only utilizing those private sector resources in social media or the websites that tell you what the laws are as you travel around the country but also take very serious consideration to only trust the information that you get from a government website or contact the state police or the attorney's general office for the state that you're gonna be visiting or traveling through. Carrying a firearm inside of a vehicle or having a firearm inside of a vehicle is of great concern to us because again, that traffic stop that most likely interaction that you're gonna have with a police officer, should never escalate to a situation of concern for them, where they feel threatened and certainly shouldn't be a situation where you end up in an argument about a firearm in the car when really it was a simple infraction of the law or maybe even a misunderstanding.

You know, the overwhelming interactions that I've had with law enforcement while traveling around the country and carrying a gun or with a truck full of guns have been positive. Most of the time, the police officers appreciate the fact that I am carrying the firearm legally or that I've made them aware of firearms that maybe they couldn't see obviously, even when I'm in a vehicle that isn't well-marked as a firearms owners vehicle. And those interactions become very pleasant and very professional. Some people will even tell you that they believe they've gotten out of certain traffic violations with nothing more than a verbal or written warning because they demonstrated a politeness and they demonstrated a responsibility as a gun owner who does take following the law seriously and maybe is interested in their personal offense in situations where the police can't be there. Most officers are going to really appreciate it when you do the things to make them feel safe.

And to let them know that that firearm does not represent a threat to them or any other innocent person during the interaction. Now, several years ago here at Personal Defense Network we did an entire DVD on interacting with the law enforcement while armed. And while this information is much more thorough and much more up to date, there were some segments that I wanted to share with you. And the first one is on interacting with law enforcement during a traffic violation. What I want you to take a look at here is how you should behave if you get pulled over by a law enforcement officer for a traffic violation while carrying a firearm.

All right, so what we're gonna do, Jeremy is we're gonna have you act out the role of law enforcement officer coming from the patrol vehicle, the PDN tour truck come up here and interact with Joe. Now, we're gonna deal exclusively at this point with concealed carry. So, Joe is gonna be in a situation where he's concealed. We're gonna have you come up and let's start with doing what you would actually do if you were out in patrol, middle of the day and pulled somebody over. Okay.

Hello, sir. Can I see your driver's license, registration and proof of insurance please? Yes, sir. But before I lean over, I just want you to know I'm a concealed carry permit holder and I have a weapon on me. Okay, can you do me a favor please and just put your hands up on the steering wheel for me?

Yes sir. Okay, thank you. Now, I wanna have you do is just keep your hands in that position for me throughout the entire contact. Well, I'm not gonna try to take your gun away from me and deprive you of your property. All I'm going to have you do is just keep your hands right where they're at and I'll trust that you'll have your insurance.

I'll get your registration information from the computer and if I could just verbally get your name that would be great. Absolutely, name is Jotham Wens. J-O-T-H-A-M. Okay. Hang in tight right there in that position for me and I'll be right back with you, okay?

Yes sir. Charlie to radio. Can I get a second yet? Okay, sir. The reason I stopped you today you were going seven miles over the speed limit.

So I'm gonna issue a citation for that today. Okay. Here you go, sir. There you go. You're free to leave.

All right. So what we saw was Jeremy did a normal approach the vehicle, he came up to the doorway. He saw a person who was clearly just sitting in the car not looking like a criminal not really doing anything except the traffic violation no reason to be agitated, no reason to approach to the car with his gun drawn or anything else. When Joe made it clear to him that he had a firearm. Again, no reason to be agitated, no reason to escalate the situation.

Most police officers are probably going to be used to citizens that are law abiding and carrying firearms notifying them. Now in some jurisdictions, this is required, in some it's not. What we saw Joe do was notify him. Jeremy said, "Great, no problem." He asked him to put his hands where he could see them up on the steering wheel. And then he continued with the traffic stop as he normally would, whether Joe was armed not with the only modification being, he put his hands up on the steering wheel.

Very simple, very low profile. Now, Jeremy, we know that the way you handled that isn't necessarily the way every officer's gonna handle it or the way every jurisdiction is gonna have by policy to handle it. What's another thing that we might see? You know, there's several different things that you might see, keep in mind that officer's safety is paramount in this situation. So, the situation is gonna really dictate what the officer actually does at the scene.

Okay, let's take a look at what might happen if the officer were inclined to have the person get out and remove the weapon from their body. Yes so what the officer's going to do is first gain control of that subject by having them place their hands up on the steering wheel. And then that officer is going to maintain control of that subject by escorting them out of the vehicle without using any force at all. And then physically actually remove that weapon from that person. Okay, let's take a look at how that might go.

Hello, sir. Can I see your driver's license, registration and proof of insurance? Yes sir, but before I lean over, I just wanna let you know I'm a concealed carry permit holder and I have a firearm in my waistband. Okay, perfect. Thanks for letting me know.

Can you go ahead and place your hands up on the steering wheel so I can see both hands please. Okay, what am I have you do is keep your hands in that position. I'm gonna give you some further commands but what I'd like you to do. Okay, do you have any questions? No, sir.

Okay, what I'm gonna actually do is I'm gonna escort you out of the vehicle. Okay, just please comply with me and escort you out of the vehicle and I'm gonna remove the firearm. Okay, I have no intent to deprive you of your weapon. I just wanna remove it off your person until the contact is over. Do you have any questions?

No, sir. Okay, keep your hands up on the wheel for me. Now go on step out. Turn and face the car. Interlace your fingers.

Spread your feet for me. Okay, where's the weapon located? My front waistband. Okay, is it the only one you have? Yes sir.

Okay. Anything else on you at all? No, sir. I'm just gonna pat you down and make sure, okay? Okay.

Okay. I want you to go and step back here for me sir. You can go ahead and turn face me and just have a seat on your bumper. All right. Now there's some very interesting things there.

The way you handled that is the way that you would handle it if you needed to clear a firearm from someone who you didn't believe pose a threat to you. Probably very similar to the way most officers are gonna handle the situation. Now, there's a huge difference between the way you handle that there and the way that we would actually take a firearm off of someone if we thought they were a threat. For example, you did it while you were alone, you didn't wait for another officer. What should we say?

What should we do in regard to the way an officer's gonna clear the weapon from our body? Just comply with them. Keep your body posture exactly the way that they're articulating your body. Don't stiff up. Don't do anything that is gonna be misconstrued as non-compliance for the officer.

Now, obviously we're dealing with someone here who is educated in the operations that they perform with good guys and bad guys all the time. You may have a different opinion of the way they should handle the search the way they should control your body. Maybe you're a martial artist or a grappler and you have a lot more knowledge over a span of years and amount of training that you've got. Then that individual officer does about the way to control someone. This is not the time to try to educate that officer about the way to handle a person or a firearm.

Absolutely. You need to just comply with what we're asking you to do. Let us take control of you. And what we're gonna simply do is remove the firearm because our officer's safety is paramount. And another thing that you gotta remember is that you referred to as a firearm obviously in a training environment, we always refer to the tool that we're using as a defensive tool the firearm, the gun, and it's not really a weapon, right?

We're not thinking of it as a weapon and that's important terminology but the officer may not be using the terminology that you would prefer that they use. For example, if you're wearing a revolver and they say, "Sir, don't touch your hands towards the pistol." This is not the time to get into a semantic argument either. Absolutely, and the other thing that we're gonna do is most officers are probably gonna say, "Weapon" cause they are not just looking for a handgun. They're looking for knives. They're looking for anything, pens anything that can be used as a weapon against us.

So once we remove that firearm, you can expect a secondary frisk or pat down to make sure that there are no other weapons on your person. Now, there's another option that I have actually experienced as the person who got pulled over for the traffic violation that an officer did and that was to actually have me remove the firearm from my person. Now, if this were an officer safety video I would not recommend this technique but it doesn't mean that you may not as an armed citizen come across this technique and need to be very careful about how you comply with it. Jeremy, if you don't mind acting this one out I don't mind at all. Hello, sir.

Can I see your driver's license, registration and proof of insurance please? Yes sir but before I lean over I want you to know I have a carry permit for a gun in my waistband. You do. Okay. Can you do me a favor please, place both hands up on the steering wheel for me?

Okay, now what I'm gonna ask you to do if you could, very slowly I would like you to remove the weapon from your waistband and just place it right up on the dashboard. Can you do that for me? Yes sir. Very slow, make sure you don't make any turning movements or anything like that towards me, okay? Yes sir.

Do you have any questions? No, sir. Okay, I want you to go ahead and make that happen for me. Okay, go and place both hands back on the wheel. Here is what I'm gonna do throughout the contact if you could just keep both hands up on the wheel but what I would like you to do right now is if you could just give me your driver's license, registration and proof of insurance?

Yes, sir. Okay, are there any other weapons inside the vehicle I need to be aware of? No, sir. Okay, I want you to go and get your information for me Now, as odd as that may have looked and as unreasonable is that action may seem the fact is that within the last few years I was actually asked to do that exact thing while carrying a revolver very much like the blue gun that Joe was using in a traffic stop. I was actually asked to remove the gun from myself and place it up on the dashboard.

At which point the officer then proceeded to reach in and clear it and do some other things that I thought were probably unnecessary at the time. But of course I complied. Jeremy, what are your thoughts on that technique A and B the way that we can best make sure that we're safe when we're removing at the officer's direction the firearm for where, wherever it is, we had to stored? First of all, I don't agree with the technique. I think that maintaining control of the violator, if you feel compelled to actually remove the weapons system you should do that by escorting them out of the vehicle and removing it.

I just think that anytime you force them to be put in a situation where you can misconstrue their actions. I think that it's bad. Okay. Now, knowing that we agree that from an officer's survival standpoint it's not the best technique, how would you handle it if you felt like you actually needed to have the person and the firearm separated? Basically what I would do is I would call for a second unit make sure I have backup there.

I would escort the person out of the vehicle and then conduct a pat down to remove the weapon. So more like what we saw in the second scenario. So this third scenario may be more rare especially hopefully more and more rare. But if you find yourself in this situation it's incredibly important that you make sure your moves are not misconstrued as a threat. Now, obviously if I reach towards my waistband and pull out a firearm and go to place it on the dash there are a lot of motions that are congruent with pulling out a firearm to shoot the officer standing out at the window.

Don't be surprised in this situation, if the officer also pulls his firearm out of his holster or stages his hand on the firearm. Again, as much as that may be an uncomfortable situation I don't recommend that you argue with law enforcement. Now, ultimately, what's your advice about the average citizen getting pulled over for a traffic stop if they do have the firearm on them. Big picture, what should they do? Most important things Most important things comply with law enforcement, make sure that all your movements are slow and deliberate.

If you don't understand what the officer is asking you to do, ask for clarification. Okay, so slow and deliberate, comply with the officer, ask for clarification. What about body position? Any other little tips that they can use to make sure that they don't agitate the officer as they approach? Yes, make sure you maintain a calm demeanor and make sure that you don't use any body posturing or anything that the officer can look at and really increase the intensity of the situation.

Okay, so either verbal or body language that will escalate the situation. And one of the things I like to tell people is go ahead and put your hands on the steering wheel to begin with. What does it say to you when you walk up to the car and someone already has their hands, you know maybe fingers splayed up on the steering wheel or even just grasping the steer. What message does that send to you as an active law enforcement officer? It definitely sends compliance.

Absolutely, it lets me know that that person is most likely gonna comply but it also lets me know that something else might be going on. So it triggers me to ask some questions. Okay, and remember if you get pulled over at night you're gonna wanna turn that interior light on so that the officer can see your hands, can see around the vehicle, can see what's going on. So here we are in the state of Washington where I believe it's not required at this time that you notify law enforcement that you're carrying? It's not required.

So in this state, my advice again I agree with Jeremy. Don't escalate the situation if you don't need to make it an issue don't make it an issue. Now where that changes is let's say that I happen to be wearing a firearm on my strong side hip and my ID or my license, my concealed carry permit, my insurance whatever it is I need is also in my back hip pocket or in my front pocket. If I'm gonna be reaching towards that firearm that's when I would suggest just as Joe did that you tell the officer ahead of time, "Hey, by the way I'm gonna be reaching towards an area where I'm now legally carrying a concealed firearm" because here's the issue. You may think that the officer standing over here on this side of the car, isn't going to see that firearm.

But what you don't know is there may be a cover officer, there may be a partner, there may be somebody on the other side of the vehicle watching in through the back glass, that officer depending on what they think they're stopping you for, who they think you are, the situations they've been dealing with, their policies, their procedures might even have his firearm drawn in that position. He's covering you to make sure you don't hurt his partner. And if he thinks you're reaching for a weapon that's when this could turn tragic. So no, you don't need to notify the officer automatically unless your jurisdiction requires it. But the minute you're gonna put your hand anywhere near that firearm, I would strongly suggest that you notify them prior to making that move and that goes for reaching into a bag, reaching in the glove compartment, reaching under the seat or reaching anywhere on your body whether there is any plausible situation where an officer could see you reaching for a gun.

Absolutely. That's what you need to do and those are the things you need to think about. If you happen to be carrying a firearm concealed and you get pulled over for a traffic violation or come to any other contact with an officer while you're inside of your vehicle. Now what you saw, there was some solid advice. But over the years, I've definitely come to some conclusions about some extra information that would have loved to have seen included in that video segment.

And we're gonna talk about those things now. So, if we go over a list of things that you want to make sure that you're going to do, when you have an interaction with law enforcement, while there's a firearm on your body, here's the first thing I wanna tell you. When that law enforcement officer pulls you over when you're about to leave the lanes of traffic and get into a safe area, either on the shoulder, or in a parking lot where you can have that interaction with the law enforcement officer without exposing yourself or him to danger from the other traffic. You also wanna think about how he's going to be able to see your hands and how your behavior inside of that first crucial seconds of the interaction are gonna let him know that you're not an immediate threat to him. So, first I want you to think about the angle at which you park your vehicle.

When you pull your vehicle over make sure that you're not setting it up purposefully so that it is harder for the officer to see into the passenger compartment or to where they would have to be very close to the lanes of traffic or maybe up against trees or down in a ditch. If you happen to be on a two lane kinda state highway with a drainage ditch next to it. Think about where you're parking and make sure that they have access to both the driver and passenger side doors because it may not just be one officer. You may have an officer who prefers to approach the driver's side. You may have an officer who prefers to approach the passenger side.

You may have two officers, one on either side and you may not even know exactly how many officers are involved. So, giving them the best opportunity to approach the car in the way they perceive as the safest and best for them, is really the best you can do. Now, if it's during the daytime and we don't have any severe weather issues, I would strongly encourage you to roll both the passenger side and driver's side windows down before the officers approach. If it's extremely cold, if there's a hard rain falling, if there's some other compelling reason why you wouldn't want to completely roll the windows down, at least open them a crack. Certainly, open the driver's side window a little bit so that you'll be able to hear the officer clearly.

If your windows are tinted, it becomes all the more important that you put those windows down and let them see into the cab. If it's nighttime, and they are gonna wanna look into that passenger compartment, of course having the overhead light on, putting your dome light on is gonna make it much easier for them to do that. And I do strongly suggest that you do that. So, during the day windows down or at least cracked. If it is raining out and you just wanna crack them, make sure that you understand the officer may ask you to roll the window down more and that's gonna be acceptable.

That's the behavior that they are gonna need to be able to interact with you so that you can move along as quickly as possible. It's unfortunate that your car may get a little wet on the inside. You may get a little wet on the inside, but your safety and the officer's safety and bringing this interaction to a close as quickly and as safely and as politely as possible really should be what you're focused on. And remember, if the windows are tinted it's all that much more important that the windows are open as much as you comfortably can open them preferably all the way, so that they can see what's going on. Some people might even suggest that you open the rear windows as well.

If you have passengers in the car, that may be not as good of an idea, because then the officers could be worried about those passengers reaching out of the car and interacting with them in a way that they don't need. Especially if it's kids that may innocently just say, "Hey wow,"" There's a police officer," "Hi, police officer" or wanna reach out and get a high five or a handshake, something like that. So keeping the windows up, if there are passengers especially kids in the backseat of the car, or of course if you have a dog particularly any large or possibly aggressive dog in the car is also gonna be a really good idea. On the other hand, if you're the only one in the car or if the only passengers are in the front seat they are adults putting all the windows down and making sure that all the passengers follow the suggestions I'm gonna give you on where to place their hands and how to behave. Probably a really good idea.

Once the officer starts approaching the car you already know that he's gonna be asking you for your driver's license, for your registration and your proof of insurance. This is common practice when there's been a violation of a traffic law. So the officer can start to make sure that he knows who you are, whether or not you are illegally driving. If the car is legally registered. And of course, if you have met the insurance requirements of the state that you're driving in.

So, knowing that those documents are gonna be easily accessible or possibly even having them staged. Personally I like to stage the two of the three documents that are most important the registration and the insurance I'm usually carrying my driver's license on me, of course. I like to stage those other two in an area that's very accessible from the driver's seat without having to reach way over into the passenger side of the car or dig through a crowded console. So I like to keep them somewhere over on the driver's side area, where I can quickly access them and have them hopefully sitting out on the dash, when the police officer approaches. I also like to have my wallet or at least my driver's license up on the dash as well.

This is gonna let me move my hands very little inside of the car. I'm not gonna have to reach into my clothing. I'm not gonna reach into an area the officer can't see. Regardless of which side of the car the officer approaches from. So I'm gonna place my hands on the steering wheel.

I'm gonna point my fingers up towards the roof of the car, or up towards the windshield and this is one of those newer pieces of advice. Its become really important. As criminals become more sophisticated, as officers become more aware of how people might train to hurt them. They become aware of the fact that if I grabbed the steering wheel which is the advice we used to give very commonly that I could be hiding something under my fingers behind that steering wheel, such as a dagger or any kind of a spike or any kind of a knife, possibly even a firearm which when the officer least expects it. And he's very close to me with that open window I could then reach out and hurt him with.

So having my fingers open, lets the officer know that I'm showing you my hands and I have nothing in them. And then of course, like I said just in front of the steering wheel up on the dash or where those documents are. Now, if you don't have those documents staged already in the vehicle somewhere where you can access them especially your driver's license if you carry it in your wallet, you wanna think about where that wallet and where that driver's license is in relation to your firearm or in relation to any firearm that may be on your person. Think about it from the officer's perspective if he believes that you are armed or if he asks you if you're armed or if he's happens to be in a state where you have a permit and as soon as the car is pulled over he also looks to see who the registered owner is, it happens to be you and the automated data system reports that you have a concealed carry permit. Now the officer approaches the car with a high degree of suspicion that you are carrying a gun.

You may be in a state where you have a duty to inform the officer as he approaches that you have a firearm or you may have told him right away, "Sir I just wanted to let you know, I am carrying a firearm for defense and I'm carrying it legally." At that moment, if your wallet is in your back pocket or in a coat pocket and he tells you, he wants to see it and you reach towards your body, obviously reaching towards your body, towards that pocket would be the exact same motion that you would make if you were reaching towards a gun, maybe that was carried in your jacket, in the pocket of the jacket or in a shoulder holster or down towards the waist in any other more typical and traditional defensive holster. Well, making that motion, if the officer's already nervous and maybe the officer's standing in front of you has both of his hands in front of him and he's talking to you very politely. But what you don't know is that there's another officer that you can't see possibly with his firearm drawn for reasons that you may not need to understand or be aware of because of what they suspect is happening with you or your vehicle, or maybe one of your passengers. And the minute you reach toward your body especially if you reach quickly even though you are following his direction of "Please let me see your driver's license." You could be perceived as a threat. So it's gonna be incredibly important for you to make sure that the officer knows, "Sir my wallet is in my jacket.

My firearm is also under that jacket. Are you sure you want me to reach for it?" "Officer, the wallet is in my back pocket and I have a firearm on my belt near my hip on that same side. If I reach towards the wallet I'm reaching towards the gun I just wanted to let you know." Having that conversation makes it much less likely that the officer is going to misunderstand your movement. And maybe they are gonna think twice about the direction they just gave you. Give them that opportunity.

It's gonna be too late to say, "Well, I was doing what you told me." If as you reach towards your wallet and move your jacket or your shirt back, the cover officer sees the gun, perceives you as a threat and things escalate from there. Now, trust me as a law enforcement officer, myself. Currently, a reserve deputy and also having been an active law enforcement officer and someone who's very involved, not only in training people for personal defense, but training law enforcement officers. I take this issue very seriously. How, we as law enforcement officers give commands to the people that we interact with is incredibly important.

And sometimes the nuance or the specificity of the words we use are really important. I like to tell people that I'm dealing with, "I only want you to follow my commands and I want you to follow them very specifically" and make sure that they acknowledge that instruction before we go any further. Because I don't wanna give a command such as show me your hands. If someone's hands are behind their back, and that movement that they make is congruent. Whether they're going to show me an empty hand or they're going to show me a hand with a gun that they mean to hurt me with.

So the instructions that we give, the demonstrations that we might make and the things that we do as gun owners are really important to understand. They have to be ones that are not threatening. Even if the officer gives you instructions. If you have any reason to think that they may coincide with a threatening motion, make sure that you politely let the officer know you have a concern about doing that. You know, the classic one is there's a gun in the glove compartment but that's also where your registration is.

So you reach over to the glove compartment, open it up and now the officer sees a gun and you move your hand towards that gun while innocently reaching for the registration. Obviously, this is a misunderstanding that could become tragic. This could be a fatal situation if the officer thinks you're trying to hurt him because you're moving quickly, you're nervous, you didn't tell them about the gun and you may actually have to touch the gun to get to your registration or your proof of insurance that's in that glove compartment. So thinking ahead of time, about where you carry a gun, where you position your hands, where you position your documents and how you interact with the police is incredibly important. You wanna set it up so that the police can see as much as possible, that the police are aware of the locations of firearms and that they're also aware if you're going to move to get those documents or your identification in a way that is congruent with reaching for a gun that you don't pose a threat and you just wanna double check that as you make that motion, the officer's fully aware that it will put your hand closer to the gun, not further away.

At this point, it's gonna be important that you follow any of the officer's commands in regard to what to do about the gun. Now, there was a time where it was relatively common for anyone who was carrying a firearm to be told by a police officer that they wanted to see the firearm, maybe that they wanted to remove the firearm from your body or even that they wanted you to remove the firearm from your body and place it on the dash, place it on the hood or unload it and hand it over to them. Now, as someone in law enforcement and as someone who trains law enforcement officers I don't agree with these practices. I happen to think that a firearm left in the holster or left in the staging area or left where it's secure is a much safer firearm than the firearm that is brought out and brought out by the person that I'm still not sure whether they're a threat or not. And the opportunity for an accident, the opportunity for negligence or the opportunity for a misunderstanding is dramatically increased if we bring that firearm out of the holster.

But that doesn't really matter if the officer that you're talking to wants you to remove the gun from the holster, or wants you to step out of the car and maybe place your hands on top of your head or place your hands on the hood of the car so that they can remove the firearm. You need to cooperate. The interested party may just want to make sure that you don't have access to that gun while they interact with you. They may want to run the serial number on a firearm to make sure it's not stolen. They may have a procedural policy with their department or prior training or prior experience or have been involved in an incident where someone was hurt because those policies weren't enforced or because this procedure that they're wanting to follow isn't followed.

So while it may not make sense to you and it may not make sense to me the instructions that they give you are the instructions you should follow. Law enforcement when they're interacting with you. No matter what, the reason, even if it's just a minor traffic violation, they have control of the situation and need to ensure their safety and of course that means ensuring your safety in that environment. If law enforcement asks you to do something that you're uncomfortable with or that you're unclear about it is always okay to politely ask for clarification, but it is never okay to become argumentative or to refuse to comply with an instruction that isn't going to put you in more danger than you're already in, particularly if they think you're a threat. Now, the idea that when the firearm's in the holster it's safer than when it's out, we probably agree on that.

But if the police officer believes that it needs to come out let them remove it or let them guide you through the procedure that they want to go through to remove it. Of course, there are issues of legal search and seizure. There are issues of officer safety. There are issues of your rights, but again as we've talked about earlier in this class those can all be worked out in the aftermath as long as you don't get hurt, and as long as you don't get charged with a crime specifically related to failing to follow the officer's instructions. Remember deescalation and cooperation should be your focus not asserting what your perception is of your rights or any potential violation of those rights, in that moment.

You wanna make sure that we keep everything as calm as possible with that law enforcement interaction. And this is where the procedures checklist that you have in your supplemental materials for this class becomes incredibly important. What you wanna do is download that, print it out, maybe even shrink it down and laminate it and keep it in your car. Maybe put it up on your visor so that if you get pulled over, if your wife gets pulled over while driving the car that has the firearm in it you can just fold that visor down, look up at the procedures checklist and make sure that you're doing the things you need to do to keep yourself as safe as possible. And to be able to ensure that you're gonna make the interaction with law enforcement as polite and as low impact and as deescalated as it possibly can be.

As law enforcement officers deal with more and more people who are carrying guns and more and more people who own guns and that number is growing dramatically all the time, they become more comfortable with legally armed, responsible gun owners. If you represent yourself as a legally armed, responsible gun owner. It's gonna not only help you in the moment, but it's going to continue to help law enforcement be more comfortable with armed citizens who are prepared to defend themselves but pose absolutely no threat to law enforcement officer himself. There are definitely initiatives inside of the law enforcement community to make officers more prepared to deal with legally and responsibly armed people. If you happen to interact with one of those officers, I bet that it's gonna be something that's very pleasant and something that you're really not going to have to fear having again in the future.

If you happen to interact with a law enforcement officer who's less sensitive to your concerns, who's less concerned about your right to defend yourself. You still need to cooperate, you still need to comply. And following that procedures checklist is probably gonna be a really good way to get through that interaction without escalating any issue of threat, without letting that officer perceive you as someone who's uncooperative and without leaving a bad taste in his mouth that only makes it worse for the next responsible gun owner on that next traffic stop.